Shure V15VxMR or a Denon DL 103R?

[brubeck]

I know a lot of TAEs and UTOTs use these carts

Which of the two would go best with our beloved Technics TT? Specially if you listen to a lot of Brubecks, Sinatras and Fitzgeralds...throw in some occasional Claptons and Mahlers in the mix.

[dannyb]

I know a lot of TAEs and UTOTs use these carts

Which of the two would go best with our beloved Technics TT? Specially if you listen to a lot of Brubecks, Sinatras and Fitzgeralds...throw in some occasional Claptons and Mahlers in the mix.

i'd go for the midrange body of the V15 it wont have the speed & detail of the denon but the midrange is perfect for vocals & sax, lows & high are also good.

i had a chance last year of getting a brand new V15 type VMXR for P14k & passed on it been regretting it ever since.

you'd be lucky to find one for under US$400 new now

the denon dl103 can be had for a lot less & is still excellent so if price is a concern the denon is a no brainer provided your phono preamp has the gain

[troporobo]

If you know where to get V15VxMR at a reasonable price please let me know This is my cart and I am absolutely not looking forward to the day it goes to that great analog junkyard in the sky and I have to find a replacement I have seen NOS models go for up to $600

Anyway, the two carts are best suited to very different tonearms. The Shure is best on an arm with low effective mass since it is very high compliance. The Denon is better suited to a medium to heavy arm since it is relatively low compliance. I don't know the Technics arm but you can find the effective mass at the Vinyl Engine and a calculator at the Cartridge Database. Then there is tracking ability. The Shure is generally regarded as a much better tracker than the Denon. Is this important to your setup and vinyl collection? Finally, there is the question of gain. The Shure is high output MM, while the Denon is a low output MC. What will your phono stage handle?

So there are a few variables to sort out first before you can decide on a "house sound" to pursue

[dannyb]

If you know where to get V15VxMR at a reasonable price please let me know This is my cart and I am absolutely not looking forward to the day it goes to that great analog junkyard in the sky and I have to find a replacement I have seen NOS models go for up to $600

Anyway, the two carts are best suited to very different tonearms. The Shure is best on an arm with low effective mass since it is very high compliance. The Denon is better suited to a medium to heavy arm since it is relatively low compliance. I don't know the Technics arm but you can find the effective mass at the Vinyl Engine and a calculator at the Cartridge Database. Then there is tracking ability. The Shure is generally regarded as a much better tracker than the Denon. Is this important to your setup and vinyl collection? Finally, there is the question of gain. The Shure is high output MM, while the Denon is a low output MC. What will your phono stage handle?

So there are a few variables to sort out first before you can decide on a "house sound" to pursue

suggest you get the few remaining replacement stylus for the V15 type 5 MxR available on some internet audio sites while you still can. even now they go for around US$150-200 @

[stereophile]

V15xMR on a Technics tonearm.

[troporobo]

suggest you get the few remaining replacement stylus for the V15 type 5 MxR available on some internet audio sites while you still can. even now they go for around US$150-200 @

If you know a source at that price range please do share

The best I can find anywhere on the net these days is $495

BTW, I have been been considering the Ortofon 540 MkII as a replacement - it is very similar in many ways to the V15VxMR: high compliance, very low mass, 3.0 MV output, Fritz Geiger nude stylus

[dannyb]

suggest you get the few remaining replacement stylus for the V15 type 5 MxR available on some internet audio sites while you still can. even now they go for around US$150-200 @

If you know a source at that price range please do share

The best I can find anywhere on the net these days is $495

BTW, I have been been considering the Ortofon 540 MkII as a replacement - it is very similar in many ways to the V15VxMR: high compliance, very low mass, 3.0 MV output, Fritz Geiger nude stylus

you're right prices have gone sky high since i last checked

for that kind of money i'd go for a clearaudio virtuoso which i think is a better cartridge overall in terms of balance, dynamics but still has that midrange magic

alternately you should consider having your stylus retipped by the cartridgeman or soundsmith

[brubeck]

thanks dannyb, troporobo and doc for your inputs. seems we have a lot of shure fans here

is it really worlds appart from the venerable m-447 or m-44g? yes, i'm quite aware of the price difference, apples and oranges right? but are technics table able to flesh out the best from these expensive carts to merit the investment? if the m-447 get you to 75-80%, how much more will the 103s and v15s bump things up?

[dannyb]

thanks dannyb, troporobo and doc for your inputs. seems we have a lot of shure fans here

is it really worlds appart from the venerable m-447 or m-44g? yes, i'm quite aware of the price difference, apples and oranges right? but are technics table able to flesh out the best from these expensive carts to merit the investment? if the m-447 get you to 75-80%, how much more will the 103s and v15s bump things up?

the m-44 is a disco cart & is pretty good for the money but even a M97Xe will run circles around it, also a clearaudio aurum classic, beta S or virtuoso would be waaaaay better.

[brubeck]

thanks dannyb,

i feel the wise choice is to save up a little more and go for the v15s. at least it will leave me feeling satisfied for a long time

[detubo]

i am a big fan of the 103. i have heard and owned quite a few carts from all price range, reasonable to kids-tution-fee levels. i have even listen to the v15 quite a number of times. the 103 never stops to amaze me in terms of performance. in one instance, we tried to make a more expensive cart match the sound of the 103r . i don't think i will ever depart with my 103 (oh, i own a 103D). if you plan to allocate P50,000 on a cart, give the 103 or the 103r a listen and buy me lunch from the money you'll save.

give architectural audio a call. they have some 103r coming in soon.

[brubeck]

hi detubo,

based on specs, the v15s should sound more "quiet" when used with not so pristine albums due to its micro ridge stylus. with the 103s conical stylus, is surface noise a big issue as compared to the V15s?

[detubo]

hi detubo,

based on specs, the v15s should sound more "quiet" when used with not so pristine albums due to its micro ridge stylus. with the 103s conical stylus, is surface noise a big issue as compared to the V15s?

this is my own personal experience and i don't profess that its the same for everyone. i admit i am no expert. ok, now with that disclaimer aside, heres my take; the v15 sounds like a mm cart. a damn good mm cart. i even recommended it to a buddy and helped him get one for P14k brand new at audiophile. don't bother because we got the last nos stock. the great thing about it is that it doesn't need a step up. big saving there. now the 103 sounds like a really good mc and for what you pay for its damn amazing. i prefer the 103r more than 103, better highs & lows. the 103r has more air and lightness than the mm's im familiar with. well maybe i don't do a good mm set up. with regards to surface noise i don't have any problem. hey its as noisy as my benz lp or my supex 900 let put it that way. if the lp is dirty and noisy i don't think a mm can conceal it. i really believe its the bench mark for price/value ratio in audio. i wouldn't trade it for some carts that are priced more than twice as much unless i have a buyer for it then i can get two 103r for the money. again thats only my opinion. heck, what do i know

[brubeck]

always great to get insights of those who've had first hand experience on these carts.

still leaning towards the v15s but it would be great to hear the 103s mounted on a technics. i hope such set up would be available during the december hi-fi show. v15 and 103 shootout anyone

[stereophile]

thanks dannyb, troporobo and doc for your inputs. seems we have a lot of shure fans here

is it really worlds appart from the venerable m-447 or m-44g?

Yes.

yes, i'm quite aware of the price difference, apples and oranges right? but are technics table able to flesh out the best from these expensive carts to merit the investment?

Yes, as with other low-medium mass arms.

if the m-447 get you to 75-80%, how much more will the 103s and v15s bump things up?

The 103s are very different from the V15s. The 103s are MC carts, the V15 MMs. They differ in VTF requirements. The V15 has a richer, syrupy midrange vs the 103s. It tracks far better than the 103s.

[brubeck]

if the m-447 get you to 75-80%, how much more will the 103s and v15s bump things up?

The 103s are very different from the V15s. The 103s are MC carts, the V15 MMs. They differ in VTF requirements. The V15 has a richer, syrupy midrange vs the 103s. It tracks far better than the 103s.[/quote]

rich and syrupy i like that! the added tracking advantage of the v15s would also do wonders for those not so pristine records.

great to hear as well that the technics arm is up to the task.

right now i'm using a vintage shure rm930c (3-5g vtf) alternating with a shure m44g. the vintage shure, which i prefer, is much warmer and fuller in sound as compared to the 447s. but after hearing a superb tt set-up (thanks again arnoldc ) i shelved the idea of getting a tube cd player and have opted to get a cart upgrade instead. have narrowed my choice between the v15s and 103s.

thanks for all the inputs. keep it coming guys. truly appreciated

[stereophile]

Unfortunately, the V15xMR is out of production. Shure cannot acquire anymore the rare & expensive beryllium used in the cantilever. The military, aerospace industries & JM labs/Focal(for their tweeters) have sequestered most of the production.

It will be difficult to find a V15xMR now.

[troporobo]

. . . Shure cannot acquire anymore the rare & expensive beryllium . . .

I have always wondered about this. One view is that it is just too hard to get, because of military applications. But beryllium does continue to show up in products here and there. Another view is that it is a major health hazard - apparently highly toxic to work with. My bet is that Shure was afraid of lawsuits similar to the asbestos debacle, especially for a niche product that can't have made much difference to their bottom line anymore

It will be difficult to find a V15xMR now.

Here's one - "Buy it Now" for only $599!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Shure-V15V-xMR-V15VxMR-cartridge-BRAND-NEW-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ150094786141QQihZ005QQcategoryZ64620QQcmdZViewItem

@TA-F333ESG: Lots of good advice in this thread but this really is an apples vs. oranges comparison. My advice is figure out what type of cart - and if necessary phono stage and stepup - you want first (MM/MC, high/low compliance, stylus profile) then get over to the cartridge database and see what turns up. If you don't want to go MC/stepup there are lots of good medium to high compliance MM alternatives at reasonable prices - Ortofon 540, Denon 160, Audio Technica 440, Shure M97 come to mind

http://www.cartridgedb.com/

By the way, what phono stage and cart are you using now? It may be that the phono stage is a good target for an upgrade. I know I was shocked and awed when I heard what a major difference a good phono stage makes with even modest carts

[arnoldc]

Gusto mo pala ng rich and syrupy, lagyan mo ng Koetsu yang Technics mo

And why limit your selection to these two carts? There re so much out there. It's not practical to buy the V15xMR now and besides there are cartridges better sounding than that.

[stereophile]

If an SL-1200 will be part of the ttables to be set-up for the Turntable 101 seminar, I will bring my V15xMR w/c is already mounted on a Technics headshell. I can easily swap it into the SL-1200 to compare w/ an M44-7 w/c is also mounted on a Technics headshell. Wanna hear it