The Gift of the Stone

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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby mandym » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:05 am

TAS wrote:
dante wrote:I tried reading the technical discussion about azimuth setting and now my head aches from the effort! Which leaves me with just one option to get my azimuth settings right. I'll invite Remus and the other expert posters to my house for an azimuth setting session, bribe them with some single malt AFTER azimuth has been set PERFECTLY, and then enjoy the music. I call this the Dante method. Problem solved! :lol: :lol: :lol:


never mind the azimuth setting....lets start na with the single malt....tutuwid na lang yan after a few rounds :drunk: :lol:


THE BEST METHOD SO FAR IN THIS WHOLE THREAD :clap: :clap: :clap: .
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby kabubi » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:36 am

WS Friends : Dante, m-m-m-meron ka pa ba diyang shhhhingel molt?
Atty Dante : A, ZIMUTH na! ang lalakas niyong uminom!
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby JackD201 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:08 am

TAS wrote:
dante wrote:I tried reading the technical discussion about azimuth setting and now my head aches from the effort! Which leaves me with just one option to get my azimuth settings right. I'll invite Remus and the other expert posters to my house for an azimuth setting session, bribe them with some single malt AFTER azimuth has been set PERFECTLY, and then enjoy the music. I call this the Dante method. Problem solved! :lol: :lol: :lol:


never mind the azimuth setting....lets start na with the single malt....tutuwid na lang yan after a few rounds :drunk: :lol:


Kung kasama natin si .......... baka iba ang tumuwid :D :D :D :D
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby Jon Agner » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:45 am

Remus wrote:
jadis wrote:Remus,

The online oscilloscope program is quite a revelation. And very interesting too. Hope you can guide us through as some of us are very interested to know where to download it and how to use it.

You mentioned that your 'measured crosstalks are 29.82 and 31.40 mV. Good enough for me.'
What would the absolute values be? Like is there such a thing as perfectly 'matched crosstalk'? Like 31.0 and 31.0mv for both channels? And how much is the tolerance to be able to say that 'that is good for me'? Also, can it happen that the measurements are 'good' but the image is off center, assuming nothing else is wrong in the audio chain? Thanks for sharing.


Here it is, Philip:

http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/scope_en

There are many other softwares available, but I prefer this one because:
1. it comes with a frequency analyzer, signal generator, etc.
2. it has very low V/div setting- down to 100 microvolts

As mentioned in my post, I only applied the oscilloscope-crosstalk method to check my set-up which has been previously set using the mirror method. Being "good enough for me" means that what I heard is already acceptable to my standard. The magnitude of the crosstalk really depends on the cartridge. Theoritically, it is possible to attain "azimuth perfection" but this depends on the headshell/tonearm mechanism if it allows micro-adjustment of the azimuth, and of course . . . . one's patience.

As for your last question, assuming that the LP is flat, the turntable is properly set up (including the azimuth of the cartridge) and nothing is wrong with the audio chain, then the remaining possible causes of imbalance would be improper speaker placement, room acoustics dissymmetry and impaired hearing of the listener.

Let me rephrase your last question to read:

"What if I have set the azimuth "as perfectly as possible" to the best of my ability, using the mirror method and yet the image is off-centered, what will I do?"

Disregarding the warpage of the LP for the moment, the possible cause of imbalance should start from impaired hearing of the listener down to the cantilever of the cartridge. The logical approach is to check for imbalance starting upstream going downstream. First, with the help of a few sticks of cotton bud, I'll clean my pair of ears :lol: :lol: (as they say, the cheapest tweak in audio is .... :rofl: :rofl: ). Then I'll check for channel imbalance stage by stage starting with the speaker output. If the imbalance is caused by something that I can not correct or replace, I will not compromise the azimuth setting just to drag the singer to the center of my speakers. I would rather listen to my set-up with the image off-centered; than having the image centered but at the same time I am having anxiety because the stylus might be scraping one of the groove walls of my LP. Pre-owned LPs with noise on one channel only are not uncommon.



As for LP warpage, Methods 2, 3 & 4 (in my previous post) are all based on test lps which might be warped in one direction (either sloping down or up towards the center) to a certain degree. If the LP being played is warped in opposite direction as that of the test LP used for setting the azimuth, then the error would be compounded. Using a flat glass insures that the stylus is aligned to the true vertical, which imho is the best compromise for LP warpage in either direction. Setting up a turntable, like other engineering tasks such as erecting structures or installing machinery, should be based on two fundamental references: the vertical and horizontal. If one is to build a house along a mountain slope, he will erect it along the true vertical; and not perpendicular to the slope.

Tito Mandy,
Dalawang gabi na akong napupuyat. Kasalanan ito ng thread mo. Ang hirap magpost, pupunta na lang kami dyan for exchange of "tastes" :lol: :devil: :lol: :devil: .


Remus,

Nice one :) It's the reason why I do speaker alignment first and component matching before I proceed with cartridge alignment. For this, I use the test CDs such as the Sheffield/XLO, to ensure that the sound is coming from the center of the two speakers.
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby audiostar » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:09 am

mandym wrote:.
@Val
Thank you for your measured comments. I appreciate you discreet reminder. Dedication and frustration are bedfellows, I guess. I apologize to all for for my outburst! Hopefully it can be viewed in good light as just one facet of the passion that sustains the life and vitality of our community. Long Live WiredState!!


This is one of the many reasons I always hold you in high esteem, Master Mandy :) Just let me know when you can drop by the house just so we can enjoy the music. I may not have Dante's single malt, but would compensate for other 'spirit'ual concoctions :lol:
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby jadis » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:29 am

JackD201 wrote:Kinda like running tubes with very high bias :D
In my experience anti skate affects image centering even more than azimuth but then again my arm lends itself to very easy azimuth micro adjustment by way of a magnet system moved via worm drive screw. When in the sweet range though the azimuth does exactly what mandy says. It sharpens the focus.


That's an excellent feature of the Phantom tonearm, imo. Micro scale adjustment of the azimuth via magnet repelling force system. Quite ingenious too. I wonder which tonearm will incorporate ALL facets of adjustablility in 'mirco scale' levels. My own ET2 does not, and I when I try to make small small 'pihit' for azimuth adjustment, I have to hold my breath, if not, baka masobrahan pa. :lol:
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby Jon Agner » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:14 pm

jadis wrote:That's an excellent feature of the Phantom tonearm, imo. Micro scale adjustment of the azimuth via magnet repelling force system. Quite ingenious too. I wonder which tonearm will incorporate ALL facets of adjustablility in 'mirco scale' levels. My own ET2 does not, and I when I try to make small small 'pihit' for azimuth adjustment, I have to hold my breath, if not, baka masobrahan pa. :lol:


Phil,

I read an article before in one british hifi magazine which lists down the tonearms that can do just that, but of course, their price is way, way beyong our reach
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby jadis » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:30 pm

Jon Agner wrote:
jadis wrote:That's an excellent feature of the Phantom tonearm, imo. Micro scale adjustment of the azimuth via magnet repelling force system. Quite ingenious too. I wonder which tonearm will incorporate ALL facets of adjustablility in 'mirco scale' levels. My own ET2 does not, and I when I try to make small small 'pihit' for azimuth adjustment, I have to hold my breath, if not, baka masobrahan pa. :lol:


Phil,

I read an article before in one british hifi magazine which lists down the tonearms that can do just that, but of course, their price is way, way beyong our reach


i see, jon. and which reminds me, on the topic on 'locked azimuth' arms. i read that to remedy this, one can insert a washer of sorts in between the tonearm base and the arm board. loosen a screw on the left area, tilt it up, and insert a washer and then lock it down. theoretically it can work, but it's gonna look 'without dignity'. :lol: imagine a $$$$ arm that has some 'tagpi-tagpi'. :lol:
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby audiostar » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:47 pm

One question for all the experts here: how perpendicular is perpendicular? If the objective is to sit the stylus exactly perpendicular in the groove, whichever method one chooses, how come some say that using a 1kHZ tone in conjunction with the volt meter may not sound right? Do I get it right that azimuth adjustments which aim is to get equal signal from both channels produce varied sonic results in relation to the methods used? Logic seems to indicate that there shouldn't be any since our only objective is to sit the stylus at exactly 90 degree angle to the record's groove.
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby mandym » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:26 pm

Jon Agner wrote:
Remus wrote: ....I'll check for channel imbalance stage by stage starting with the speaker output. If the imbalance is caused by something that I can not correct or replace, I will not compromise the azimuth setting just to drag the singer to the center of my speakers. I would rather listen to my set-up with the image off-centered; than having the image centered but at the same time I am having anxiety because the stylus might be scraping one of the groove walls of my LP. Pre-owned LPs with noise on one channel only are not uncommon.

Remus,
Nice one :) It's the reason why I do speaker alignment first and component matching before I proceed with cartridge alignment. For this, I use the test CDs such as the Sheffield/XLO, to ensure that the sound is coming from the center of the two speakers.


This is just great. I believe this is fundamental to setting up the azimuth correctly. If you don't have the CD that Jon mentioned, flip your preamp switch to "mono" so you can balance out the sound. If it won't center, there is some imbalance caused by the room or your ears. If you cannot fix either, yes you have to live with an off-center image but still enjoy the benefits of a well aligned azimuth.
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby JackD201 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:37 pm

Hi Val the stylus tip is to be 90 degrees from the bottom of the groove so the sides of the stylus can be 45 degrees left and right now 90 degrees to each magnet's usual orientation inside the cart. Like VTA and VTF that affect each other because of cantilever and suspension flexure on the vertical plane, azimuth and anti-skate work together on the horizontal plane because of the same flexure or compliance. The lower the compliance either way the more sensitive in my experience to distortion. Pumapalag kasi. The reason our Zyx Airys are less finicky with regards to azimuth than the Koetsu because of the Zyx's engineered in higher lateral compliance and also why the XV-1t is less finicky with VTA and VTF with the Koetsu as well. This also connects the dots to low compliance being better with high effective mass arms. The higher the effective mass, the more compliant the cart becomes. One can tho do the strange match up of a high compliance cart with a high effective mass arm and most probably end up with a dancing arm wand. :) :) :)

This brings an important point into play. Just as VTA and VTF can be used to counteract or complement each other in affecting stylus rake angle, same goes for azimuth and antiskate. While azimuth deals mainly with channel separation (focus) and antiskate with signal level (stage position), they do a little of the other too :) It's like speaker position is the azimuth (focus/toe-in) and antiskate is speaker distance (front or back/ output level at listening position).

At this point we are really splitting hairs. Many arm cart combos perform beautifully without obsessive compulsive tweakery. The greater majority do not even have easy azimuth adjustment mechanisms while others do not provide for anti-skate. Many don't have VTA mechanisms either. The only constant seems to be counterweights.

Here is where I will begin to just theorize. I think the reason most very good arms don't come fully equipped is that the greatest distortions/distractions come from cart alignment (which all goes back to proper installation of the arm at the correct spindle and pivot distance) and mistracking issues from non-optimal tracking force. Much of the much less serious deleterious effects of non gross azimuth and antiskate errors can be offset by speaker placement, acoustic damping, active eq or even a balance control. That's why I think of getting these factors right icing on the cake. In a system that has been painstakingly tweaked to already have as much channel separation and balance as humanly possible (like Jon I rely on digital for this except I use full range pink noise instead of test tracks), hitting the magic spot just brings that eureka moment like that experienced by Tito Mandy :clap: :clap: :clap: My favorite example is Jadis' system and room. No azimuth control on the ET2, finicky Koetsus yet already with lots of icing.....one of the best imaging systems I have ever heard and one of the best scaled in terms of realistic image size to boot. I theorize that gimbal arms and linear trackers have higher lateral effective mass than my unipivot and that might explain why the best I've ever heard Koetsu carts or carts like SPUs for that matter are with fixed bearing arms and Phil's ET2 (only linear tracker I've heard with a Koetsu). End of theorizing :D

A lot has been put on getting the image centered maybe because by habit we are taught that it is an audiophile must. The magic for stereo to me however is the after effect of setting up the system phase correct. `Chances are ones the center ball of pink noise is nice round and solid, definition of events on the extreme boundaries of the soundstage will be pretty good too. But with analog it is when everything clicks from source to room that you go past stereo and enter the realm of the walk in soundstage! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby JAA » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:06 pm

From my experience, Analog tweaking would not be a daunting task as long as the rest of our system has no major issue. Addressing problems on each link from speakers, cables, amps, interconnects, tubes, preamps and room should be our preliminary tasks. A good cd player is already an acceptable program source. Once we have eliminated the problems, we can now pursue with the analog tweaking. Although countless setting combinations are offered to improve or worsen the sonic outcome, the manufacturer's recommended setting can be our home base. Just play around within the tolerable range. The target spot will not go beyond it. Manufacturer's specifications and tolerance of our analogs were based from ideal setting, or shall we say everything in relation with it is perfect. That is why we should address first the major issues of our system to make it closer to prefection. :)
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby Mamimili » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:32 pm

My eyes do not work too well with mirrors etc anymore, since this thread started i have been trying to work out how i could perform a basic and easy azimuth check.
Today i hung a small lead shot on a fine cotton thread, taped the thread along the top of the headshell (with the lead ball hanging below the stylus tip).

Using Denon's 103R (with a line down the centre front) it was obvious that thread and line slightly off. I assume i did not tighten the screws evenly, my second assumption is that the line on the cartridge face is central/vertical. Slightly tightening one screw lined up the thread. I will take it as a given that the thread itself is hanging vertically.

So, is the place to start, even for low end arms and low cost cartridges, with the screws that hold the cartridge in place in the headshell?
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby mandym » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:12 pm

audiostar wrote:One question for all the experts here: how perpendicular is perpendicular? If the objective is to sit the stylus exactly perpendicular in the groove, whichever method one chooses, how come some say that using a 1kHZ tone in conjunction with the volt meter may not sound right? Do I get it right that azimuth adjustments which aim is to get equal signal from both channels produce varied sonic results in relation to the methods used? Logic seems to indicate that there shouldn't be any since our only objective is to sit the stylus at exactly 90 degree angle to the record's groove.


I believe the object is to sit the stylus exactly perpendicular to the groove. The question is: How do I know that I have I reached perpendicularity? In my Koetsu experience, I frequently came across good image centering but wandering sibilants. A micro-adjustment is necessary to place the sibilants in the singer's mouth!
I think that correct azimuth gets more important at higher frequencies. Maybe 1Khz is be a bit too low for critical azimuth adjustments, that is why the end result using a 1KHz tone "may not sound right"? BTW my Denon 103R has the "Displaced Sibilance" syndrome also but not to the same severity as the high resolution Koetsu!
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby audiostar » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:35 pm

@ Jack and Mandy: you made my day :)
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby jadis » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:33 pm

Well what do you know....All this talk about azimuth and single malt, and this is what I found inserted in my Nautilus Test Record. And it is all self-explanatory. :D :D

Image

That malt liquor and grape soda on the right seem to be in 'excellent' if not not perfect separation. :D

I didn't know there actually was a correlation among these 2 things, azimuth and single malt. :D
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby mandym » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:24 pm

Mamimili wrote:My eyes do not work too well with mirrors etc anymore, since this thread started i have been trying to work out how i could perform a basic and easy azimuth check.
Today i hung a small lead shot on a fine cotton thread, taped the thread along the top of the headshell (with the lead ball hanging below the stylus tip).

Using Denon's 103R (with a line down the centre front) it was obvious that thread and line slightly off. I assume i did not tighten the screws evenly, my second assumption is that the line on the cartridge face is central/vertical. Slightly tightening one screw lined up the thread. I will take it as a given that the thread itself is hanging vertically.

So, is the place to start, even for low end arms and low cost cartridges, with the screws that hold the cartridge in place in the headshell?


If you do not have an arm with offset vertical bearings ( ala Roxsan), you might have a slight problem. On most tonearms (vertical bearings not offset), the horizontality (Oh no, not another variable :D ) of the headshell changes as it is raised/lowered. It will probably be best if the plumb line is shortened so that "plumbing-in" can be done with the stylus resting on the record. SLAGI (seems like a good idea) for roughing in Denons.
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby Mamimili » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:10 pm

mandym wrote:
Mamimili wrote:My eyes do not work too well with mirrors etc anymore, since this thread started i have been trying to work out how i could perform a basic and easy azimuth check.
Today i hung a small lead shot on a fine cotton thread, taped the thread along the top of the headshell (with the lead ball hanging below the stylus tip).

Using Denon's 103R (with a line down the centre front) it was obvious that thread and line slightly off. I assume i did not tighten the screws evenly, my second assumption is that the line on the cartridge face is central/vertical. Slightly tightening one screw lined up the thread. I will take it as a given that the thread itself is hanging vertically.

So, is the place to start, even for low end arms and low cost cartridges, with the screws that hold the cartridge in place in the headshell?


If you do not have an arm with offset vertical bearings ( ala Roxsan), you might have a slight problem. On most tonearms (vertical bearings not offset), the horizontality (Oh no, not another variable :D ) of the headshell changes as it is raised/lowered. It will probably be best if the plumb line is shortened so that "plumbing-in" can be done with the stylus resting on the record. SLAGI (seems like a good idea) for roughing in Denons.


i did it again with the platter off and some longer black thread, shows up easy against the Denon's white line.

One of my friends uses an expensive optical scope to level critical parts of machinery, next time i see him i must get him to check all this!
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby mandym » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:10 am

Mamimili wrote:i did it again with the platter off and some longer black thread, shows up easy against the Denon's white line.

One of my friends uses an expensive optical scope to level critical parts of machinery, next time i see him i must get him to check all this!


OOps, FAIL. Platter off? Longer black thread? I'm afraid I did not get your method correctly. Maybe a sketch will help.
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Re: The Gift of the Stone

Postby Mamimili » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:58 am

mandym wrote:
Mamimili wrote:i did it again with the platter off and some longer black thread, shows up easy against the Denon's white line.

One of my friends uses an expensive optical scope to level critical parts of machinery, next time i see him i must get him to check all this!


OOps, FAIL. Platter off? Longer black thread? I'm afraid I did not get your method correctly. Maybe a sketch will help.


Next time i will take a photograph!
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