Musicality - what it means to you...

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Musicality - what it means to you...

Postby vintage_dog » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:06 am

which is more important to you? accuracy/neutrality or musicality? of course, most folks would probably say both! but, what are you willing to compromise for the other?

so, what exactly is musicality? when is a system musical? on a scale of 1 to 10, where is your system?

more $$ = more musicality?

if not , what is the formula for musicality?

fire away guys!
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:13 am

If all my LPs would be audiophile recordings, I'd go for a system that is very neutral. :wink: Fact of the matter is, I only have a handful of LPs with audiofool quality. :roll: So I'd say, I'd go for a system going to musicality. :)

I'm the type which listens to music which I like, rather than listen to music which sound good. :wink: Again, if the LP sounds good, then that's icing on the cake. :wink:

The thread below discusses some Accuracy vs. Musicality stuff for your reading pleasure. :)

viewtopic.php?t=7271
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Postby marty_e » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:27 am

A musical system forces me to stop deconstructing what I'm hearing and soak in the music as whole and not the sum of its parts (bass, mid-bass, upper mid bass etc.). Some systems give ample amount of detail that encourages analysis. Others withhold just enough detail that you just lean back and enjoy - not that analytical systems are not enjoyable. They are too.

I work in a highly analytical field and often give my left brain enough workout in a day. When I get home, I just want to listen. I rate my current system a 6 in musicality and maybe a 4 in neutrality. While listening fatigue can often be attributed to the ears being tired, i think fatigue is caused more by the brain constantly trying to interpret the system and the music at the same time.

My formula for musicality...........................












Wala. Pa chamba chamba lang.
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Postby arnoldc » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:42 am

ako none of what is mentioned.

i don't care about the characteristics anymore (unless forced to describe it) and what's important to me is IF I ENJOY THE MUSIC.

it does not matter if it's my Sony Ericsson K750i, which by the way, I tremendously enjoy in our bathroom, or the current analog gear I have and all those in between, including my crappy Acer notebook's sound card.

:D

ps. by the way francis, i noticed you were headbanging while you were listening to my "rock" album from Billy Cobham:D

peace :D
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Postby vintage_dog » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:49 am

arnoldc wrote:ps. by the way francis, i noticed you were headbanging while you were listening to my "rock" album from Billy Cobham:D

peace :D


that's why i called it rock! :D (it rocks!)
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Postby JackD201 » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:49 am

Boss VD, I posted on the other thread but here is the gist of it. There is a misnomer here promulgated by the audio press. Analytical and Neutral are not the same. Neutral is the S shaped line that separates the Yin and the Yang Analytical is White and Euphonic Black. In a sense musicality should be the BALANCE (my favorite word in life as in audio :D) between both sides. Musicality would be on the Yang side but closer to the center S.

labo ba? Sorry best I could do at the moment.

Back to musicality. As arnoldc said musicality can be had anywhere. If we use this measure then even the pipe in music at the supermarket can be considered musical when you hear a song that is particularly nostalgic. The test would be if the system can make a NEW emotional connection with a NEW previously unheard, situation independent piece of music. The other test is the ability to actually influence your existing mood and pull you into what whatever piece of music is playing. Like being in a really good mood then listening to Billie Holiday and for that 2 minutes and a half be filled with melancholy.

$$$$$$=more musicality? Naaaaaaaah. But it helps :lol: :lol: :lol:

musicality = more enjoyment? YES

musicality the end all be all? NOT FOR EVERYBODY, but it should be first and definitely not lower than second on the list IMHO.

Where's my system now? 7.8 siguro.
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Postby vintage_dog » Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:08 am

rightly or wrongly, i tend to equate accuracy with neutrality. so, for now, i'll just use accuracy.

my analogy is simple.

i have a digicam focused on a red apple and am viewing the image on an LCD TV. red is "accurately" reproduced, so are the lines, proportion, even lighting.

in an "accurate system", the apple on screen appears identical to the real one - in color and contrast.

in a musical system. i look at the apple on screen and it makes me grab it. my gastric juices begin to flow and my mind tells me i want to have it. i can even "smell", taste" and "feel" its texture...

well, hard to really describe why one reacts that way to a musical system. a musical system is one which you stop listening to, but simply one you experience, feel and be involved in...
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Postby Jon Agner » Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:49 am

Musical/Musicality (as defined in Stereophile Megazine) - A personal judgement as to the degree to which reproduced sound resembles live music. Real musical sound is both accurate and euphonic, consonant and dissonant...

Neutrality as defined also by Stereophile, is free from any coloration.

If I understand this correctly, Musicality means that the sound should be accurately reproduced but at the same time pleasing to the ears, while neutrality may refer to a sound that has no coloration.

If I am to follow the above definition, I would like my system more musical than neutral. Ika nga eh, gusto ko mas malasa, hindi bland :)

When does a system become musical? Hmmm, hard question, I guess depending on the mood and the music we like to play.

My system: for my own listening pleasure, I give it a 9 :)
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Postby JackD201 » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:31 pm

vintage_dog wrote:rightly or wrongly, i tend to equate accuracy with neutrality. so, for now, i'll just use accuracy.

my analogy is simple.

i have a digicam focused on a red apple and am viewing the image on an LCD TV. red is "accurately" reproduced, so are the lines, proportion, even lighting.

in an "accurate system", the apple on screen appears identical to the real one - in color and contrast.

in a musical system. i look at the apple on screen and it makes me grab it. my gastric juices begin to flow and my mind tells me i want to have it. i can even "smell", taste" and "feel" its texture...

well, hard to really describe why one reacts that way to a musical system. a musical system is one which you stop listening to, but simply one you experience, feel and be involved in...



Aaaaah Ok :)

In that case an apple looks like an apple. Perhaps I'd prefer looking at the apple shot for an orchard commercial so I guess I'd go for the added embelishment. Hey why not? Wala naman tama o mali.
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:39 pm

I wont even try to babble my brains out about neutrality since I really don't know 100% how my LPs sound. :roll: Yes, I may conclude something like..... "Since this particular LP sounds thin using 10 different MCs, then I can safely say that this LP is thin sounding." :roll: But how about the rest of the MCs around that I have not tried :?: :roll: In the first place, my perception of thin maybe considered being not bloated or even neutral to others. :roll: Eh pano na kung kabitan ko pa ng Koetsu, eh di tumaba na yan :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: So, its really a never ending audiophile paranoia. :twisted: :lol:

I don't even try recreate live music in my audio room coz in the first place, it cant, whatever I do. :( I have been to full orchestra, mini concerts with no mics. :) Audio systems will never create 100% live music. :P The dynamic impact, and naturalness of insturments, and the human voice is simply impossible to recreate through speakers or even a very maporma turntable. :o

However, I still like to have a sound system that could sing the way I want it too sing. :wink: I understand that it cant duplicate the real thing, but among my priorities would be to have the correct timbre as possible. :wink: Audiophiles will be audiofools, so I also like to have those wide and deep soundstage and pinpoint imaging stuff. :)

So, how is my system :?: Its far from the real thing. :( But am I happy :?: Yup :!: 8) One things for sure, I love maporma looking turntables, which gives you pride of ownership :!: And that's one thing that makes me happy. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby ichabod » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:41 pm

Musicality it seems tells us more of the music than what is perceived by the audio-conscious ear/brain as being accurate to the source.

Ergo, it's still the music per se, and not gear, that creates that magical spell to make one tap his feet to its beat or melody. Everywhere music is heard, one is bound to react -- whether that comes from a well-appointed audio system or just a plain transistor radio, or some PA in a park or somewhere. As Santayana puts it: "Music (as in musicality) is the highest form of art that serves the dumbest emotion." Think of what becomes of you when the pulsating rhythm of music comes in sync with the alpha, beta frequencies of the human brain. It's magic!

Accuracy and neutrality are some of the best words audio experts use to describe an audio system whether it's the recording or the playback of that recording in an audio system. Not the real thing. But still can activate or in fact heighten one's musical sensibilities. These apparently are some of the quaint reasons why we prefer this amp or that amp, speaker A from B, and vice versa, as the one that matter to us. But I think it's rather being a little "anal"about it, don't you think?

In the BBC sense, accuracy in sound (recorded sound as faithful to its source) requires the total involvement of the whole sound process. A good example are the BBC designed speakers. Most of their speakers are flat across the midband, with a slight dip at the x'over point to even out or curve excess energy in that region and flatten out unwanted energy where the ears are most sensitive. But more than this, their brand of "accuracy" in sound reproduction rest in the compleatness of the sound being reproduced. Hence, the reason why BBC monitor speakers like the LS 3/5a are called point sources.

Dr. Robert L. Greene gave a very good distinction between point source speakers and those that are highly directionalized, and gives his reasons why the BBC designed speakers seem to sound more natural.

For the sake of truth and accuracy here's what he said and I quote:

"The more directional a speaker is, the more direct the sound reaches the listener compared to reflected, room-influenced sound. Large planar radiators, for example, 'reach' much further into the room than do wide dispersion sonic source. On theother hand, most natural sound sources are not very directional and actlike omni-directional point sources or atleast the front forward facing half of such. The human voice is like that, for instance. Thus, a point source forward radiator tends to have a more natural sound than, say, a large planar without electronic tapering to similate a smaller source. No human voice ever enamated from a flat 2 x 6-foot sheet. (The grand piano is one of the few musical instruments that does act as a large dipole, but at audience location, it is still small in perceived spatial extent.)"

Then Greene goes by comapring the Monitor 40 (harbeth speakers) to another.

"The Monitor 40s go for point source naturalness at the expense of directional 'reach.' The comparison with the Dali Grands (review, Issue 114) is interesting. Both speakers are flat in overall balance. The Grands, with double driver arrays, have more reach into the room than the single driver (in each range) Monitor 40s. The Grands thus tend to be very flat at the listening position almost automatically."

"On the other hand, the point source nature of the 40s gives them a morenatural sound on the human voice. Life is full of compromises! Moreover, in practice, the room interactions of a speaker like the Harbeth do not make it sound non-neutral but give the ear/drain a little more sense of being in the listening room than one gets from a highly directional speakers."

Question: Aside from our normal reactive sensibilities to music as we hear it from any source, which do you think plays best now to give more compleatness to both musicality and accuracy? After all, we audio nuts don't always listen "live." We always seem to prefer it from the "dark side."

Fire away some more!
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Postby vintage_dog » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:08 pm

is there such a thing as a "non-musical performance", or is the word "musical" only confined to the gear/system that reproduces it?

;-)
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Postby dogears » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:32 pm

My gear might not be accurate but I can enjoy the music I play on it. Heck, I can even enjoy the music when I listen to a mono portable radio :)

For me, it's the music/musicality first :D
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Postby ichabod » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:42 pm

A "non-musical performance" in live music would be anything from "mediocre," "staid," "dull," uninvolving," and just plain "boring."

In audio, those terms would be something like, "sterile," "anemic," "dull," "harsh," "bright,"
"lacking texture and detail," and I guess we all know what; audio frequencies, too sliced up and divided, specially towards the mids and highs, that you hear "everything" as being detached from the actual source and call that "transparency" of sorts. The more conscious we become about these little audio flaws or faults, let alone "hearing" them in our gears, the more anxious we are about our audio. Ain't good!
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Postby boombastig » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:15 pm

I'm no audio guru or expert, but I tend to associate the two terms (i.e. accurate vs. musical) to :

ACCURATE:
Measurability - results can be obtained with consistentcy, whoever performs the measurement

MUSICAL:
Perception and preference of listener - results vary and is different from person to person (i.e we don't expect a person to say that a system is more musical than another if the music being listened to is metal rock and he hates any beat faster than a butterfly's wing)

Whatever it is, music is the reason we are in this hobby and the degree of enjoyment we get from it is what I term MUSICAL and the ways or technology that brings it to us is the ANALYTICAL part. (Lumabo yata ano!)
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Postby Skabyol » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:24 pm

I like Sir VD's analogy. Musicality is the mind's appreciation of the sound it listens to. If the sounds moves your spirits and emotions then it is musical. So for you to enjoy your audio setup you must find at least one part of it to be musical. If the system is neutral/accurate then you must depend on the source (cd/lp) to be musical. If your cds/lps are bland then the system must be musical.

I'd rate my system as a 6 or 7 in the musicality scale, but with a more musical recording (one i really like) then musicality can easily shoot up to 10 :D .

Which is more difficult/costly to achieve a musical system or an neutral/accurate system??

just my 1 peso (2 cents)
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Postby jadis » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:46 pm

Powerful.....Musical.......Accurate.....- Carver magazine ad

I once asked an American speaker designer if his speakers were musical or accurate. Bewildered, he answered: " Don't you think what is musical HAS to be accurate? " That left me speechless, and I admit I had to ponder on it for a while. What he meant was, if his speakers were to play some music, from musical instruments like the piano and guitar, then, the listener would have to recognize its accuracy in its portrayal of the piano and guitar as opposed to a harpsichord and a lute. That was my interpretation. Because that is the only explanation I can think of regarding his statement.

But our perspective as audio hobbyists and audiophiles seems to be different. I agree with everyone's assessment of our definition of musical and accuracy. The bottom line would be, "if I'm enjoying my sound, or music (some actually consider these as 2 different things) that is all it matters. So where does accuracy come in? Or where did it originate? My own observation is that the term accuracy was coined by magazines like Stereo Review ( Julian Hirsh of Hirsh-Houk <sp> Labs), Audio Magazine and Stereophile, to name a few. There lies in these mags many many pages of GRAPHS, measurements that I did not and do not seem to grasp.
Maybe one thing I know is that the sound waves have to be linear, or in a straight line - which seemed strange to me because what I know that is 'straight-lining', of flatlining, is a dead thing. :) Anyway, that is my impression of accuracy, as someone mentioned earlier, it has to measure GOOD, according to the chief tester of equipment, using some high tech measuring machines.

Whereas the term musicality connotes a certain sense of long term enjoyment deriving from thick, lush, smooth, and body-ful highs and mid, but 'never-mind-the-lows-who-cares-about-it-anyway'. That is the common perception. Needless to say, there are those who cares about the lows, and again, that is very normal. Musicality is even subjective.
The LEVEL of musicality is even more subjective. How thick? Thicker than what? How lush, lusher than what? What is the standard basis? Where is ground zero? I guess, none. As many said, it is a 'feeling' thing. And that is that. From thereon, birds of the same feather flock together. Like those who feel that musicality's benchmark is the sound coming from a 15 ohm Rogers 3/5a, they kinda mingle together. And that is great. That is just an example. Different strokes for different folks, they say. The beauty in this is that we will find people whose taste for musicality is the same as ours, guaranteed. My own direction here is towards the musical side.
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Postby conspicuous » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:15 pm

jadis,

i would tend to agree with your american friend. maybe phrased another way: shouldn't a hifi system accurately reproduce the musicality of the recording?

maybe this would be open to comment from zach:

when recording in the studio, the type of monitors used by the engineer has to accurately capture the music being played by the musicians, right? then they keep the recording they feel sounds best in terms of performance and musicality and if not they do another take.

so to me, what comes first is musicality from the performer. then accuracy needed to capture it, record it, and to play it back. :)
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Postby strings » Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:07 pm

Musicality. Even without audio equipment, musicality stands on it own. Someone singing acapella, a guitarist gently strumming... etc. Technology helps us replay the musicality at our convenience through lps,cds and other media. Our audio equipment is where the musicality gets replayed. For most of us in this hobby, the playback system should be accurate for us to re-experience the musicality.

As a guitarist or a singer has to practice to perfect his or her art, we, as listeners are compelled - because of the love of music, to sharpen our listening skills and improve our playback systems, and, if we're open enough, to learn to appreciate other types of music.

Musicality first. Everything else is just a means to relive it.

But then again, just as I've learned the phrase in WS, "But that's just me".
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Postby ichabod » Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:17 pm

We simply enjoy music today from our audio gear because we can readily associate or hear almost the same sound of the instrument as one would "live." Hence, the term high fidelity. But high fidelity has its little infidelities as well. This is where the whole crux of the matter lies. When we talk "musicality" for an amp, it invariably means how music-like does it play music. When we talk of accuracy, we mean how timbrally or tonally the same is the audio to the actual timbre of the musical instrument, say a cello or violin. But it doesn't stop there. We must also consider that sound changes somewhat depending on where we hear it -- whether it's in a concert hall or some room or chamber. How close or how far?

There's no doubt that many a speakers are good enough in accuracy and musicality. There's in fact a lot to choose from that will delight even the most demanding listener. However, as we all know, different speaker designs yield different or varying degress or levels if you like of ear/brain consciousness to musical sounds. There are designs that can help raise one's level of awareness to a higher degree of realism that gets one more intensely involved with his particular music because of what the speakers or that amp does, to highten one's musical experience. That alone redefines the level of musicality of an audio gear.

I think most all of us who are drawn into this hobby has at one time or the other, prior to our being "anal" about audio, discovered a certain ecstasy from a musical experience that keeps the fervor going. That the search for newer listening realism is a continuing process (won't go away)and indeed becomes the "holy grail" of our listening experience! This, I believe, is where our true concept of musicality lies -- from within ourselves. The idea of pulsating rhythm is intrinsic to us humans. Our brain waves are in the same frequency as music itself. The question then becomes, is your gear coping up in giving you the musical gratification you constantly yearn for?

It was Dr. Harvey Rosenberg who once wrote and said that if you can't dance "nude" with your gear, it's time to change it.
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