Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby JackD201 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:36 pm

rascal101 wrote:
Tama po kayo at hindi kakayanin ng scope yung galaw ng hangin.

Nakikita lang noon iyung signal na pumapasok sa speaker. Kung meron pong pumasok sigurado meron lalabas :)


Baka diyan ka nagkakamali bro.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby arnoldc » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:40 pm

Kabubs, mababawasan yung inductance pag pinutol... pag sigaw nya ng "by the powers of greyskull..." baka 'di kumidlat :lol:
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby kabubi » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:51 pm

arnoldc wrote:Kabubs, mababawasan yung inductance pag pinutol... pag sigaw nya ng "by the powers of greyskull..." baka 'di kumidlat :lol:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

at eto ka naman Arnold nung nagsisimula ka sa audio, with one of your first DIY projects
paki click yung properties para malaman mo kung kanino kita hinahalintulad ;)
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby ESaudio » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:54 pm

rascal101 wrote:To summarize what I am saying and to rephrase, a playback system with phase correction greatly helps with separation of low freq, mid freq and high freq may minimize the need for a sub-woofer.

A phase lead or lag causes the resultant sound to be forward or further from the normal background, respectively.


Bro, how would you determine that the phase or signal separation coming from your CD player or TT is correct? Would you care to share if you have any gadget to test or determine this coz so far i have no problem with my CD players or even my seldom-used, if not unused, TTs? For me, the only thing that matters and really makes the difference is the audio recording and the mixing. I guess all of us can always tell whether a CD or an LP has a bad recording or nice recording.

So what i am looking for in an audio system is the proper, if not a perfect, tonal balance (is this what we call "correct phasing?) in an audio recording or music.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby arnoldc » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:10 pm

Wow! Kabubs, linear tracking tonearm ba yan with phase correction? Laki ah! Kaya nyan ng 0Hz :lol:

Seriously, that reminds me of the sub woofer (Polk Audio ata) where it indicates the volume like a morse code... medium spaced blinks for the 10's and fast blinks for the ones. Hence blink (pause) blink + blink (mabilis na pause) blink (mabilis na pause) blink = 23 8)
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby rascal101 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:59 pm

JackD201 wrote:
rascal101 wrote:
Tama po kayo at hindi kakayanin ng scope yung galaw ng hangin.

Nakikita lang noon iyung signal na pumapasok sa speaker. Kung meron pong pumasok sigurado meron lalabas :)


Baka diyan ka nagkakamali bro.


If you can explain on the mechanical side of the speaker it would be of great help to people who focus more on the magnetic side.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby rascal101 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:06 pm

ESaudio wrote:
rascal101 wrote:To summarize what I am saying and to rephrase, a playback system with phase correction greatly helps with separation of low freq, mid freq and high freq may minimize the need for a sub-woofer.

A phase lead or lag causes the resultant sound to be forward or further from the normal background, respectively.


Bro, how would you determine that the phase or signal separation coming from your CD player or TT is correct? Would you care to share if you have any gadget to test or determine this coz so far i have no problem with my CD players or even my seldom-used, if not unused, TTs? For me, the only thing that matters and really makes the difference is the audio recording and the mixing. I guess all of us can always tell whether a CD or an LP has a bad recording or nice recording.

So what i am looking for in an audio system is the proper, if not a perfect, tonal balance (is this what we call "correct phasing?) in an audio recording or music.


For me, as long as the timing of frequencies (highs, mids and lows) are heard in this order then the phase is correct. So, the cymbals should arrive first, then the vocals then the base.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby audiostar » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:46 pm

rascal101 wrote: For me, as long as the timing of frequencies (highs, mids and lows) are heard in this order then the phase is correct. So, the cymbals should arrive first, then the vocals then the base.


Medyo lumihis na ata sa tuwid na daan etong thread na 'to ah. Pero ok lang mga bros, basta wala lang pikunan ha.

@ rascal: papano kung puro baho yung recording? how would you know kung in phase yung system mo? :)
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby rascal101 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:57 pm

Yari po tayo dyan Sir :)

Sa akin pong set-up, para ma sure ball ko na tama ang phase ginagamitan ko ng Lattice Phase Equalizer iyung CDP at DVDP ko. Ikinakabit ko ito sa RCA out. I google niyo na lang po ang imbentor, history at kung saan ito dati ginagamit.

Ito po ang ginawa kong sirketo kung nais niyong magbuo.

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Last edited by rascal101 on Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby muypogi » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:58 pm

rascal101 wrote:
ESaudio wrote:
rascal101 wrote:To summarize what I am saying and to rephrase, a playback system with phase correction greatly helps with separation of low freq, mid freq and high freq may minimize the need for a sub-woofer.

A phase lead or lag causes the resultant sound to be forward or further from the normal background, respectively.


Bro, how would you determine that the phase or signal separation coming from your CD player or TT is correct? Would you care to share if you have any gadget to test or determine this coz so far i have no problem with my CD players or even my seldom-used, if not unused, TTs? For me, the only thing that matters and really makes the difference is the audio recording and the mixing. I guess all of us can always tell whether a CD or an LP has a bad recording or nice recording.

So what i am looking for in an audio system is the proper, if not a perfect, tonal balance (is this what we call "correct phasing?) in an audio recording or music.


For me, as long as the timing of frequencies (highs, mids and lows) are heard in this order then the phase is correct. So, the cymbals should arrive first, then the vocals then the base.


So paano yung ginagawa ng mga speaker makers which compensate for this by offsetting the depth of their drivers so that the sound arrives all at the same time to the listener? So pag phase correct, hindi time aligned yung sound?
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby Jon Agner » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:07 pm

rascal101 wrote:
JackD201 wrote:
rascal101 wrote:
Tama po kayo at hindi kakayanin ng scope yung galaw ng hangin.

Nakikita lang noon iyung signal na pumapasok sa speaker. Kung meron pong pumasok sigurado meron lalabas :)


Baka diyan ka nagkakamali bro.


If you can explain on the mechanical side of the speaker it would be of great help to people who focus more on the magnetic side.


Of course there will always be an LF signal that will feed into the voice coil of the speaker, coming from the amp, unless you put a filter in between.

Now, on the mechanical side, basically, we are talking about transfer of energy, from electrical to mechanical right? Canthe LF/VLF signal produce enough voltage and current to enable the voice coil of a speaker to move back and forth? Can the movement of the voice coil produce enough power to agitate the air around it? In theory, yes it is possible. But then the next question is if there is a single driver speaker available in the market today that can do this? And I mean a single driver that can respond properly and efficiently w/in the entire audio bandwidth.

If there is one available today, then why do we still need to design and build speaker cabinets? Why do we need to build 2 way, 3-way, N-way and array speakers if one speaker can do it all? Right ;)

Nothing personal. This is just an exercise of our minds :)

Cheer up 'man, lahat naman tayo dito pinag-aralan na din 'yan ;) :)
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby rascal101 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:24 pm

Sa aking pagkakaintindi kapag phase correct, time aligned po ang tunog.

Hindi ko po kabisado ang practices ng speaker makers. Ang sure lang ako, kapag nagsabay ang low freq at high freq sa speakers (lalo na iyung may passive crossover) hirap talaga ma distinguish ang low. Lalabas kasi na bumababa iyung impedance ng woofer capacitor dahil sa pagpasok high freq. Sa saglit na iyon o maikling sandaling iyon, halos wala tayong maririnig sa woofer.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby arnoldc » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:40 pm

pls explain "woofer capacitor"
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby rascal101 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:44 pm

That would be the crossover capacitor in parallel with the woofer.
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Phase and Time Alignment Same?

Postby Squirrelnutzipper » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:59 pm

This is not very clear. Phase alignment and time alignment are the same here? Why would you want high, mid and low to arrive to the listener in that order, especially if the placement of the instruments in the recording venue is different than this order? Sorry if I am missing something here, because of the mixed language being used.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby ESaudio » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:15 pm

rascal101 wrote:
ESaudio wrote:
rascal101 wrote:To summarize what I am saying and to rephrase, a playback system with phase correction greatly helps with separation of low freq, mid freq and high freq may minimize the need for a sub-woofer.

A phase lead or lag causes the resultant sound to be forward or further from the normal background, respectively.


Bro, how would you determine that the phase or signal separation coming from your CD player or TT is correct? Would you care to share if you have any gadget to test or determine this coz so far i have no problem with my CD players or even my seldom-used, if not unused, TTs? For me, the only thing that matters and really makes the difference is the audio recording and the mixing. I guess all of us can always tell whether a CD or an LP has a bad recording or nice recording.

So what i am looking for in an audio system is the proper, if not a perfect, tonal balance (is this what we call "correct phasing?) in an audio recording or music.


For me, as long as the timing of frequencies (highs, mids and lows) are heard in this order then the phase is correct. So, the cymbals should arrive first, then the vocals then the base.


i tend to agree with you na from the digital source or TT, the correct phase order or timing of frequencies may be heard first from the highs, then followed by the mids and then last from the lows. this is what i usually observed when you start to open up the audio volume from your amp and the first thing/signal/frequeny that you'll hear is the highs, unless of course the audio recording starts with a bass frequency. so, this may all boil down to an audio recording, that is, assuming your CDP or TT is in correct phase order. does this mean that the high frequency travel faster than the low frequencies? what about the next stage of amplification? the phase order from your source will always be influenced and affected by the manner or character of amplification that your amp or preamp may operate and lastly, by the design of your speakers drivers, crossovers or voice coils. in other words, from the source to the preamp/power amp to the speakers, must there be synergy in terms of signal amplification or timing of frequencies at the correct phase order or say, "firing order"? Even if these frequencies (highs, mids and lows) doesn't travel at the same speed, am i correct to say that they must be tuned or amplified at the proper amplification to arrive at the right mix or tonal balance?
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Re: Phase and Time Alignment Same?

Postby Nelson de Leon » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:19 pm

Squirrelnutzipper wrote:This is not very clear. Phase alignment and time alignment are the same here? Why would you want high, mid and low to arrive to the listener in that order, especially if the placement of the instruments in the recording venue is different than this order? Sorry if I am missing something here, because of the mixed language being used.



Or how can any device compensate for the time alignment of different drivers w/o the device knowing the parameters of the drivers (cut-off &/or xover points, diff driver impedances & sensitivity, enclosure design, driver distance, room acoustics to name a few) which greatly affect time alignment.
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Re: Phase and Time Alignment Same?

Postby rascal101 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:37 pm

Squirrelnutzipper wrote:This is not very clear. Phase alignment and time alignment are the same here? Why would you want high, mid and low to arrive to the listener in that order, especially if the placement of the instruments in the recording venue is different than this order? Sorry if I am missing something here, because of the mixed language being used.


The relationship of phase and time per my understanding is this, a time delayed signal is a signal that has a phase lag. The higher the time delay the higher the phase lag.

The system will be obeying the natural order if high, mid and low freq arrive in this way to the listener if these 3 are present in the recording. Of course adding progressive delay in the various frequencies is some sort of alteration. For me however, with phase correction it helps in 2 ways

1. To compensate for what may be phase issues (there is a phase lead or time advance) caused by the audio chain
2. To have better soundstage
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby arnoldc » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:23 pm

Oh my gulay, what is this?

1. Bumababa yung "impedance" ng woofer capacitor dahil sa pag pasok ng high frequency
2. Walang maririnig sa woofer

Do you even know what a capacitor does in this passive cross over you are describing? It limits the low frequency going to the tweeter. It will not impede the signal going to the woofer. It protects the tweeters from getting the low frequency that the tweeter will otherwise get without the capacitor.

A decent crossover will have a coil (inductor) to stop the high frequencies from going to the woofer.

Ipasok natin yung phase shift... A passive crossover will introduce a phase shift, for example a 6dB filter will have a 90 degree phase shift, so designers compensate for that by reverse phasing the tweeters.

So what were you saying again?

rascal101 wrote:Sa aking pagkakaintindi kapag phase correct, time aligned po ang tunog.

Hindi ko po kabisado ang practices ng speaker makers. Ang sure lang ako, kapag nagsabay ang low freq at high freq sa speakers (lalo na iyung may passive crossover) hirap talaga ma distinguish ang low. Lalabas kasi na bumababa iyung impedance ng woofer capacitor dahil sa pagpasok high freq. Sa saglit na iyon o maikling sandaling iyon, halos wala tayong maririnig sa woofer.
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Re: Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

Postby m_shoe_maker » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:33 pm

kabubi wrote:Image


Ano toh? Stebel air horn? :?:
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