Does an audio system need a subwoofer?

[muypogi]

To summarize what I am saying and to rephrase, a playback system with phase correction greatly helps with separation of low freq, mid freq and high freq may minimize the need for a sub-woofer.

A phase lead or lag causes the resultant sound to be forward or further from the normal background, respectively.

Yes, but it would still not solve the problem of the speakers' inability to deliver the lower frequencies. If you have Smallish bookshelf system (like mine, audience 42 na hanggang 53 hz lang at home and castle richmond 3i na hanggang 60 hz lang in the office), you'd still need augmentation of the lower frequencies evn if you have a phase-correct source.

I speak for experience as my previous 10 inch sealed sub provided a much more complete sound vs the standmount speakers alone. Medyo bitin nga today as i save up for an upgrade of my sub to a custom built 12 inch front firing sealed config. Sayang yung sub correction capability ng current amp ko, in the meantime.

[Gino]

Basta, it WILL solve it nga daw eh!

[rascal101]

The problem with many systems is that the low, mid and high freq appear to be arriving at the same point. So even if you have speakers with good low freq response you still feel "bitin" as the low freq response is not distinct. In many systems, rather than employ subwoofer they just use equalizer so that the low freq is distinct. For others, they use subwoofer.

When you have phase corrected playback system, the low, mid and high freq is distinct and as such the need or wish to have a subwoofer greatly decreases.

[rascal101]

Would also like to add that even the speaker rating is 200Hz to 10KHz it would still accept 1Hz, 2Hz, 3Hz etc input signal. At these frequencies the response of the speaker is severely attenuated. However, if say attenuation is just 50% of nominal then very likely your phase corrected playback system helps out because of good separation of frequencies. Using a playback system with no phase correction since frequencies are arriving at the same point it is harder to distinguish the low freq.

[JAA]

No matter how we address the phasing issue of a source, the final link will always be the loudspeaker. Unfortunately, non of the current speaker designs could warrant the optimization of a single driver system capable to emit a linear 20hz to 20Khz bandwidth even at a satisfactory sound level. Impedance swings and inductance still compel designers to adopt a multi-driver system. A loudspeaker will act as a crossover (filter) once operated outside its frequency limits, thus phase shifting is also present here. On the other hand, sealed enclosure of a woofer or subwoofer is the simplest and most linear, however, the least efficient design. Since a sealed enclosure has a roll-off of 2nd order (12 db/octave), a speaker system with a lowest specified frequency response of 70Hz, will be rolled down by 12db upon reaching 35hz. But of course room gain might possibly boost those depleting frequencies.

[trauma]

Would also like to add that even the speaker rating is 200Hz to 10KHz it would still accept 1Hz, 2Hz, 3Hz etc input signal. At these frequencies the response of the speaker is severely attenuated. However, if say attenuation is just 50% of nominal then very likely your phase corrected playback system helps out because of good separation of frequencies. Using a playback system with no phase correction since frequencies are arriving at the same point it is harder to distinguish the low freq.

I disagree. This is like saying that FM radio can accept VHF signals OR that some people can perceive thru a 6th sense. PURE VOODOO. No midrange driver or bass driver or tweeter can accept a signal below or above what it is designed for Phase correct or not I do not believe any one of you audiophiles can determine this on a blind A/B test.

A rose is a rose. A sub can only take you to the limit of depth for which it is designed. No phase correction can equal that on normal floorstand or bookshelves speakers unless it is designed for such.

[rascal101]

The only issue I know at very low frequencies for speaker drivers is core saturation. If the speaker core has not is not close to being saturated there should be no problem responding even 0.5Hz. That is why in my response above I mentioned 50% attenuation or 50% core saturation.

The reason why low frequency is not noticeable for woofers is because when input signal is below frequency rating, the core permeability becomes lower. This lowers the inductance and consequently the impedance of your speaker driver. With lower impedance, there will be lower signal that the speaker driver can deliver (owing to the voltage divider - higher amp impedance and lower speaker impedance. It is very likely the output signal from the speaker driver very low it cannot be heard or felt at all.

There is no voodoo here. The speaker cannot reject any signal. It can only respond to it based on its response characteristic.

[JackD201]

How about the relationship between excursion and surface area?

Drivers will accept the signal yes, there's a big difference between accepting and producing. Like anything mechanical, there are mechanical and thermal limits. I think you are looking at them from a purely electrical perspective in which case theoretically you might be correct.

[joe3rp]

How about the relationship between excursion and surface area?

Drivers will accept the signal yes, there's a big difference between accepting and producing. Like anything mechanical, there are mechanical and thermal limits. I you are looking at them from a purely electrical perspectivein which case theoreticallyyou might be correct.

Sir,
Is this another way of politely saying "from the INTERNET"

[arnoldc]

Ako I'm not polite. Kaya Rascal, since parang sirang plaka yang post mo, using the same paragraphs, tapusin na natin ito...

I will give you my Sony Ericsson mobile speakers, using your argument, patunugin mo ito na ma measure yung 10Hz ha... We will use my Transfiguration Axia with phase correction (sorry, walang schematic yung tonearm wire eh) and Clearaudio Symmetry with phase correction. Amp na lang, labas mo yang amp mo.

Game?

[rascal101]

Tutal may scope ka. Ilagay mo iyung scope probe mo dun sa speakers. Hanap ka ng source na kaya 10Hz. Inject ka run. Tignan mo sa scope kun meron kang signal.

[rascal101]

How about the relationship between excursion and surface area?

Drivers will accept the signal yes, there's a big difference between accepting and producing. Like anything mechanical, there are mechanical and thermal limits. I you are looking at them from a purely electrical perspectivein which case theoreticallyyou might be correct.

Sir,
Is this another way of politely saying "from the INTERNET"

Hindi po ako nag google o naghanap ng sagot sa internet. Nasa college textbook na po ang mga sagot.

[jhd]

Tutal may scope ka. Ilagay mo iyung scope probe mo dun sa speakers. Hanap ka ng source na kaya 10Hz. Inject ka run.

Di ba dapat ay sound pressure level (SPL) meter na ang pang-measure, kasi output na 10hz ng speaker ang titingnan, kung meron man.

[rascal101]

Sir gusto ko lang ipakita na kung may lalabas na signal sa scope walang problema iyung speakers. Ibig sabihin hindi nagsature iyung core.

Tama po kayo SPL ang batayan. Pero kung titignan natin mabuti ang mga sinabi ko, halos nasa normal operation iyung speakers at 1Hz kasi nasa 50% saturation lang. Parang rated ang speakers at 200Hz to 10KHz tapos nag-inject ako ng 199Hz. Iyun po ang argumento ko. Hindi ba mailalabas ng speaker iyung 199Hz?

[rascal101]

Sir Arnold, hindi kita papatulan at alam naman natin kung ano mangyayari. Bigyan mo na lang ako ng speakers na kaya 15Hz at patutunugin ko iyung 10Hz mo.

[muypogi]

Sir gusto ko lang ipakita na kung may lalabas na signal sa scope walang problema iyung speakers. Ibig sabihin hindi nagsature iyung core.

Tama po kayo SPL ang batayan. Pero kung titignan natin mabuti ang mga sinabi ko, halos nasa normal operation iyung speakers at 1Hz kasi nasa 50% saturation lang. Parang rated ang speakers at 200Hz to 10KHz tapos nag-inject ako ng 199Hz. Iyun po ang argumento ko. Hindi ba mailalabas ng speaker iyung 199Hz?

Well for those of us without scopes, we have to rely on audible differences. So what may appear on the scope will likely be of no use to us, as that would be inaudible. . .

Getting out of theory, it's your system, and when you listen to it, parang may kulang sa sound. Hindi "bilog" and the bottom end possibly needs some audible augmentation.

As for actual specs - if your speakers say they are rated 53hz to 22khz, then assume it is so, plus or minus the ratings in the speakers. So, ported stuff may go somewhat lower than their rating depending on placement, but you expect an audible rolloff as you go down.

How to determine, quickly, if You speakers are "in phase" and you're playing a source that's "in phase"? Go get Stereophile's Test CD. May tests dun na will determine if your setup is correct, kung tama yung left or right channel, out of phase na recording and in phase na recording etc.

[JackD201]

How about the relationship between excursion and surface area?

Drivers will accept the signal yes, there's a big difference between accepting and producing. Like anything mechanical, there are mechanical and thermal limits. I you are looking at them from a purely electrical perspectivein which case theoreticallyyou might be correct.

Sir,
Is this another way of politely saying "from the INTERNET"

Polite way of saying "look at the bigger picture" lang bro. Hindi naguumpisa at natatapos sa kuryente. Ang simula at katapusan nasa galaw ng hangin

Last I checked a scope doesn't measure that. Polite nanaman no?

[arnoldc]

Ok na ko sa argument mo, sinagot mo na eh. Sus, pinahaba pa...

Sir Arnold, hindi kita papatulan at alam naman natin kung ano mangyayari. Bigyan mo na lang ako ng speakers na kaya 15Hz at patutunugin ko iyung 10Hz mo.

[rascal101]

How about the relationship between excursion and surface area?

Drivers will accept the signal yes, there's a big difference between accepting and producing. Like anything mechanical, there are mechanical and thermal limits. I you are looking at them from a purely electrical perspectivein which case theoreticallyyou might be correct.

Sir,
Is this another way of politely saying "from the INTERNET"

Polite way of saying "look at the bigger picture" lang bro. Hindi naguumpisa at natatapos sa kuryente. Ang simula at katapusan nasa galaw ng hangin

Last I checked a scope doesn't measure that. Polite nanaman no?

Tama po kayo at hindi kakayanin ng scope yung galaw ng hangin.

Nakikita lang noon iyung signal na pumapasok sa speaker. Kung meron pong pumasok sigurado meron lalabas

[kabubi]

sa init at pusok ng palitan ng diskurso, eto ka Mel



kelangan siguro putulin yung espada mo para mabawasan ang capacitance, ano?