Ask BOMALABS, & get no BS answers (Bomalabs- C'mon down)

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Postby bomalabs » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:42 am

although i spent 12 years of my life in the ateneo, i am not ashamed of saying i was in san beda, unlike my adversary in pldt, who percieves himself to be the eptiome of an ateneao alumni when he actually only spent 4 college years there. truth to tell, by the time you go to college, your character has already been formed, and you are what you are, if you get my drift. unfortunately for the san beda alumni association, it seems that this particlular alumni has forgotten them, cholosing isntead to be with the more "sosyal" group. what a shame. what a reflection of his true character.
anyway, back to audio. we tuned cesars room tonight, joe and i. and from one hour of moving his spaeakers millimeter by millimeter, we were able to catch the real sound of the weavers at carnegie hall. i should invite one of you next time around do you can realize the various components that go into a great sounding listening room. for one there is the ROOM. next there is the PLACEMENT of the equipment. then there is the proper ALIGNMENT of the gear. this part is called TWEAKING and can sometimes take many weeks or months, depending on the owner of the owner and his ears. (and his friends)(and his PATIENCE) Put these all together and maybe then we can consider the EQUIPMENT part. slorry to say this, but i have noticed that so many members have gotten caught up in the equipment race that they have forgotten the other equally important parts of how to get a good if not great sound. and all the above contribute. You can have the most expensive equipment available but if your room sucks don't bother inviting me. I'll just feel sorry for the gear. then again you can have a great room AND gear but if haven't got the right guys to tweak it, and take note, tweaking is an art, you are wasting your time. so you can have all the right CD's as listed in someone else's list. Buy the equipment he recommended, but if you don't have the above, then you got squat. Nada. Zilch. That's why I have been offering the services of the 15 year old Tuesday Club but it seems you instead to go a separate way. Thats fine. As the saying goes, live and learn. But let me challenge you by this. I invite your most credible so called leader to our just tweaked room next week. And let him be the one with the golden ears. For he shall hear what we have put together as an example for all of you to see what is in store for you. For you to see that you too can have the same experience and as my frioend Steve Rochlin would say: Enjoy the Music. Your replies suggestions comments are welcome. And remember the Old Testament
Thou Shalt Not Honor False Gods. Wake up, Pinoydiophiles! Get out of your comfort zones and fixed ways of thinking. Harry Pearson's advise to me was to get you guys to get out of SET thinking and expose you to push pull triodes. You are big boys now. No hand holding. The Man has spoken. If HP said it it has to mean something, and I suggest you give him the benefit of the doubt. (I mean no disrespect to Rene). I have been briefed on how this group came about and I have given you the above as kind words from someone who has squandered a fortune groping his way around the block trying to find his way to audio nirvana. Now I offer myself as someone willing to share those experiences so that you can save those megabucks. I also had a lot of start up systems. from the Cyrus Ones to the Dynaco von Alstines to Celestion 3's. Ive matched up with the Big Boys and with the starter kits. So fear noy. I am here for you. Not to speak of myself nor to brag about my accomplishments. They speak for themselves. I am here to help my friend Francis, who was kind enough , while joining our Tuesday Club meetings early on, gifted me with a Jazz Book that I still treasure. Well, it is payback time Francis, and I am here if the froup will have me. If not , that is fine too. High end is not installing a system and expecting a great sound. A lot of work still goes with that. I am ready to help if you fellows want it. Only if you want it. If you are happy the way your systems sound now, well and good. If you are content with looking at pictures of sound systems copied from a US magazine, good for you. But if you think that there can be more to high end audio than just wired state and hopelessly trying to squeeze more juice from your system, you may be doing it the wrong way, my bro. Just know that bomalabs has repeatedly offered to help. The little that we know might just be the help you need. After all, we aren't afraid to get our hands dirty working on systems. That be all. Hope you guys get what Im driving at.
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Postby rossifumi46 » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:30 am

gerry, i dont have a dedeicated listeing room but im making the most out of my gears, when im ready ill invite you, we young and startup audionuts could surely use your knowledge in tweaking and system synergy:)
btw I also spent 12 years of my life in ateneo, from prep masaya to 4e...:)
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Postby iceman90a » Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:56 am

alright! a chance to learn more!

say when and where Sir, and I'll be there :)
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Postby hein » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:27 pm

We're not worthy, we're not worthy....
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Postby red76 » Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:14 pm

Your replies suggestions comments are welcome. And remember the Old Testament
Thou Shalt Not Honor False Gods. Wake up, Pinoydiophiles! Get out of your comfort zones and fixed ways of thinking. Harry Pearson's advise to me was to get you guys to get out of SET thinking and expose you to push pull triodes. You are big boys now. No hand holding. The Man has spoken. If HP said it it has to mean something, and I suggest you give him the benefit of the doubt. (I mean no disrespect to Rene). I have been briefed on how this group came about and I have given you the above as kind words from someone who has squandered a fortune groping his way around the block trying to find his way to audio nirvana. Now I offer myself as someone willing to share those experiences so that you can save those megabucks. I also had a lot of start up systems. from the Cyrus Ones to the Dynaco von Alstines to Celestion 3's. Ive matched up with the Big Boys and with the starter kits.


Hi GK,

I agree with most things you've said... I've read HP's articles in tha past starting around mid-90's (small journal format), and his constantly in flux mega buck systems. But I find the debates amongst reviewers and HP far more intresting when they aregue about musical tastes, equipment, etc. These days though I personally find most mainstream highend to be stale and boring with very few exceptions,

There is the so-called Cult of SET that is already mainstream by means of Cary and some budget Audionote UK stuff etal.... I don't want to diss those prodcuts, but most of those commercial offerings make serious compromises in design for cost effieciency and "attractive higher power ratings". Kelangan ng heavy mods to trulu shine... SET was stereotyped as midrange only amps because of the reason i just stated and combined with just plain wrong ancilliary equipment. PP Triodes in the commercial realm like the ones from VAC with paralleled triodes only hint at their true capabilities, which is really a shame (and waste of good tubes IMO). There are a few exceptions of course, but they are mostly very expensive custom and/or limited production types. There is a lot of dogmatic thing that Triodes are always superior, or SET is better than PP, or OTL is better because you eliminated the output iron, or OTL is unerliable, or SS sounds always sounds inferior to tubes etc etc etc... For me personally i don't buy into this, there is alot more creativity if you keep your ears and minds open and not be heavily indoctrinated, it all comes down to proper design engineering and implementation, there are loopholes. DIY stuff like anything else can be good or bad, that depends heavily on the DIY'r, but I mostly find the best of DIY (ss, tube, pc music servers, analog, all types of speakers) almost always tramples over commercial designs of even higher in $.

There are different types of tweaks IMHO.. One level is more akin to design changes and parts changes (cables, electronc and sources mods and upgrades, digital room eq and x-over for the bass frequencies..) The other is a dedicated room (optimization and component isolation and placement etc). The latter is very important as you pointed out, and I agree. But I have a personal hierarchy in setting up if I have more money and time to spend at least:

1. A dedicated music room with proper size and dimensions for the system (big or small)

2. Equipment synergy and maximization of each components' potential within the system.

2. Acoustic treatments tht are right for the room (mine is far from ideal :( ), component placement (speakers!) and isolation techniques.

I try to listen to all types of systems as much as possible if I have the privelege of access to it, and I bet others too or would too. I find that not making any sweeping judgments on certain technoligies is a good thing for there are too many facotors and variables involved, but of kors there comes a time that you just dont have to make any excuses. What sounds like a turd, really sounds like a turd no matter what tweak and system you put it into:D :twisted:

The only cult I subscribe to is the "Cult of Good Music", which is a subjective thing and boils down to personal taste.
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Postby bomalabs » Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:56 pm

Red76,
You got it. Hit the nail right on the head. An open mind is always the key to happiness.
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Postby iceman90a » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:11 pm

Sir,

since the chances of getting you in my living room to move around my speakers while i sit at the sweet spot are zero to none - perhaps you could give some tips by answering some questions to start me out:

1. what does toeing in of speakers do to the sound
2. moving them closer together - away from the side walls
3. moving them forward - away from back wall
4. tilting them up/down
5. raising them from the floor - relative to ear level when seated

lastly perhaps most important of all, can you recommend a track/cd which we can play while doing all this in pursuit of proper imaging? please describe how we should be "seeing" them eg: singer in the middle, guitar player on a stool/standing to her right, piano (grand/upright) on her left slightly behind, etc.

thanks!
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Postby ichabod » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:05 am

If I may. It only means one thing. If you do it, happy are you for a better sound.
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:30 am

I think Bomalabs should have his own "BOMALABS' CORNER". :)

His vast experience, and no B.S. approach in the hobby can help every-all. :)

What do you think :?:

Pwede diba :?: :)
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Postby ihatejazz » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:45 am

m_shoe_maker wrote:I think Bomalabs should have his own "BOMALABS' CORNER". :)

His vast experience, and no B.S. approach in the hobby can help every-all. :)

What do you think :?:

Pwede diba :?: :)


For once, MSM, I agree with you!
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Postby KD » Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:28 am

I third the motion. You just saved yourself from getting banned.
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Postby hein » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:36 pm

Hey, BOMALABS. Show us naman the EXOTIC audio system Inquirer was referring to naman. All we saw in your pic was the x-rated VCD collection of yours.
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Postby bomalabs » Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:36 pm

Iceman,
1. what does toeing in of speakers do to the sound
2. moving them closer together - away from the side walls
3. moving them forward - away from back wall
4. tilting them up/down
5. raising them from the floor - relative to ear level when seated
lastly perhaps most important of all, can you recommend a track/cd which we can play while doing all this in pursuit of proper imaging?
My replies-------
re #1 toeing them in adjusts the focus of the sound coming from the speakers. we spent an hour toeing in cesars acoustats millimeter by millemeter to get the right sound last night. when you get the right sound, you'll know it. All the insruments, the vocals lock in, and that is what is oft called audio nirvana. we were there!
re#2 having them too close to the walls will result in the sound bouncing right off the walls and straight in your face. not good. you don't want them too close either. putting a carpet-type of insulation right beside the speaker on the wall. having a door right beside a speaker is not too good for your system either for obvious reasons.
re #3 back and forth from the back wall. HP made the rule of thirds. Divide your room into three equal parts and start speaker placement by using the first 1/3 near the wall. That is your guide From thereon, you will have an easier time determining where your speakers will sound best. But it takes a lot of sweat. You can't just clump down the spaekers at the 1/3 line and asy they are fine coz HP said they are the way to go. Konting tyaga.
re #4 Don't tilt them up and down. I don't think they were really designed for that. You'll get the sound you want without the tilt treatment.
re #5 Depending on the type of speakers you have, any of the older audio buffs around here will gladly help you figure out what heights speaker stands you need. They vary in height. The better ones have holes in them so we can fill them with lead, sand or a mixtuer of both. This helps deaden the stand and avoid vibration. It builds muscles too.
re#CD for imaging. i suggest the weavers live at carnegie hall 1966 i believe. Pete Seeger plays his guitar on cut 9(?) "Guantanamera" along with foot tapping. Real rugged test for any system. I think this is the sort of music you are looking for.
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Postby iceman90a » Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:39 am

thank you very much!

will be busy this weekend :D
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Postby bomalabs » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:32 pm

iceman,
what were the results of your tweaking?
i'm sure the guys will be as interested as i am to find out.
gerry
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Postby iceman90a » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:37 am

getting there... wasn't able to get any foams to place at the side wall near the speakers :( I also haven’t been able to do anything about the tv in between the speakers.

tried the rule of thirds - moved the speakers forward from the back wall

... while listening to one track by mary j blige - i forgot to turn on the subwoofer, and didn’t notice it too much :)

still cant get the sound to come out from outside the side of the speakers, maybe its because they are too close to the side walls?

thanks Sir
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Postby RU9 » Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:53 am

gk,

for my type of music (classic rock and some headbangers), will an entry level Naim system be the way or would you rather propose a different system.

thanks.

louie
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Postby bomalabs » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:43 pm

ice:
still cant get the sound to come out from outside the side of the speakers, maybe its because they are too close to the side walls?
gk: maybe you are too close too the side walls. how about giving me your ddistances from speaker to rear wall, to listening chair, to side walls, and finally, it is my firm belief that you beloved tv set if causing quite a bit of interference to your sounf systems overall sound. you will will have to decide to push it back to get it out of the way because having it in between the speakers will really cause major distortion. please find a remedy for this cause i can only help you as much as you are willing to help yourself.
gk
Louie, my old friend: now many dbs are you speakers? if they are say 88db and above , they should be able to handle the Naim, then you shouldnt be experiencing problems. they should be able to handle anything. Check your speaker's db rating and let me know. If they are high enough, we will look for another way to attack the problem.
i'm here for you, old friend.
gerry
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Postby RU9 » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:25 am

bomalabs wrote:now many dbs are you speakers? if they are say 88db and above , they should be able to handle the Naim, then you shouldnt be experiencing problems.


Hi Gerry,

I have a standmount with a low 84db and a floorstander with a conservative 87db. I have a Rotel RB03 (70 watts/channel) brigeable to 140 watts. I read that Naim gears excels in PRAT.

Thanks.

Louie
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Postby Hans adriane » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:17 am

Hi Gk,


like to ask if theres an ideal distance for the side of the speaker from the wall my room size 2.9 mtr wide x 3.2 mtr long

thanks

Hans
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