To stream the impossible stream

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To stream the impossible stream

Postby ttommy » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:15 am

In the past friends have teased how I've stacked the deck against digital in my system. But both budget components, the Marantz CD5003 DAC and Cambridge DACmagic have stayed put over three years and I saw no need to upgrade... until recently. And while I've had the replacement component and auxiliary device for the past couple months, I've also been so busy with other hobbies that even if I do keep and try to stay current with audio, I haven't been posting much here. Sorry 'bout that :mrgreen:

But let's examine with what keeps me from doing analog, master of Swiffer Wushu technique, just waiting for that moment when a stylus is within reach :oops:

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Not that that's happened, but my listening has switched from analog to iTunes and much as I try to listen everyday, it's rare when I can play a couple tunes uninterrupted without someone running over my toes with his walker. :lol: Oh joy.

What this post is really about-- if you've been following developments in digital audio recently, then perhaps you've heard that the once impossible-to-rip SACD format, DSD, has become "streamable" with the help of a modern-day digital Prometheus, Mr Wicked, and some hackable older versions of Sony's Playstation3. For more information check out SACD ripping using a PS3.

The short of it is you upgrade your older PS3 firmware with a version that allows an SACD ripper package to be installed. Then, using another program called sacd_extract.exe on your PC you can extract the ISO files from an SACD inserted onto your PS3, assuming your PS3 is connected on your home network. Otherwise, you'll have to rip that ISO onto a USB thumb drive attached to your PS3. Next, you'll need to extract individual DSD DFF files (or DSF if you prefer) and later stream them using a DSD-capable music player (iTunes+Pure Music on the Mac, Signalyst HQplayer on Windows) via USB2 or Firewire into a DSD capable DAC.

Here's a video I made showing the steps involved sans DAC and music player configuration and hopefully you'll get the general idea (best watched 720p full screen):



Having moved all amps back to the center, I listen some 12-15 away most of the time. I also haven't decided whether to use PureMusic on a Mac or HQplayer on Windows and at the moment only have long Firewire cables. Whichever computer / player I end up using is gonna be positioned on the side wall, closer to my listening position.

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Hardwire-wise, these are the guys that make it happen. First, a Playstation3 with CECHA* CECHB* CECHC* or CECHE* with firmware 3.55 or lower. See here to see if the PS3 you have will allow SACD ripping.

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Next, a DSD-capable DAC. Below we have the Mytek Stereo192-DSD "preamp" version DAC:

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And finally, a good dose of patience :) You've heard that saying "you can always tell the pioneers from the arrows sticking out of their backs." I remember back when first had my 8-input RME/Nuendo 24/96 digital I/O over 10 years ago. It was bleeding edge at the time and made possible a notebook-based digital audio workstation with very low latencies. As far as this goes, I've never been as excited with digital audio until now. Imagine the possibilities if the big studios started releasing DSD masters for download. (Not that I'm against PCM, but there's DXD too)

Then again, perhaps I should just learn how to defend against Swiffer Wushu :lol:

Thanks for reading!
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Re: To stream the impossible stream

Postby dimfer » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:59 am

nice post as usual.

cute Swiffer wushu you got there. I have one too, but she is much older, say 84 yrs older. needless to say, I have paid a cartridge tuition fee already, thanks goodness it is only a DV10x5.

not too many people know how to rip their sacd collection yet, and I'm surprised to find out it involves a lowly PS3... True to their claim, "PS3 only does everything" I guess. this is good news to audiophiles who are heavily invested in sacd and now into streaming.

I don't have any sacd, but my MP rips and stores everything in 32 bit, higher bit depth at source played in non oversampling dac can sound very analog like.. I am willing to bet SACDs played on streamers will sound fantastic, probably much better than their spinning cousins.

In a couple of years, your Swiffer Swiffer wusu will be ready to play that PS3 with you.
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Re: To stream the impossible stream

Postby rtsyrtsy » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:54 am

I've just downed whatever remained of an old bottle of white wine. I'll have to watch your video and read the links you posted tomorrow.

Oh, I have about 2 SACD discs to practice on. :-)
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Re: To stream the impossible stream

Postby ttommy » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:50 am

Thanks, Ding and Russ :)

dimfer wrote:I have paid a cartridge tuition fee already, thanks goodness it is only a DV10x5.

You were lucky indeed!

not too many people know how to rip their sacd collection yet, and I'm surprised to find out it involves a lowly PS3... True to their claim, "PS3 only does everything" I guess. this is good news to audiophiles who are heavily invested in sacd and now into streaming.

Just bear in mind there are only a few "older" models of the PS3 that can play SACDs. The code has to be either of those mentioned above. Then on top of that you have to be sure the firmware wasn't upgraded, otherwise, the OtherOS++ firmware can't be installed.

I don't have any sacd, but my MP rips and stores everything in 32 bit, higher bit depth at source played in non oversampling dac can sound very analog like.. I am willing to bet SACDs played on streamers will sound fantastic, probably much better than their spinning cousins.

MP has their own secret sauce to make Redbook sound analog for sure. For DSD streaming otoh, besides Mytek currently there's only Playback Designs MPD-3 DAC and dCS Debussy.

One could also just buy DSD downloads from Blue Coast Records and 2L - The Nordic Sound and skip the PS3 ripping hoopla. It's not so much that each individual step is complex, but putting all these steps together can be intimidating considering it involves some "hacking" to extract the DSD files.

In a couple of years, your Swiffer Swiffer wusu will be ready to play that PS3 with you.

He's not getting a gaming system, he'll have a piano and guitar and that's it :lol:

Again, the recipe:

  1. Find an older PS3 that can play SACDs (models here).
  2. Make sure the firmware is 3.55 or earlier and that your PS3 doesn't have the YLOD (yellow light of death)
  3. Download and rename OtherOS++ into PS3UPDAT.PUP inside a USB memory stick folder /PS3/UPDATE and update your PS3 firmware with it. At the end of this operation your firmware should be 3.55.
  4. Download and install the sacd_ripper.pkg along with the PS3 keys from a USB memory stick. This will make SACD Ripper appear as a game within your PS3. When you activate this "game" and insert a SACD to rip, you can either rip the ISO file (for the entire SACD disc) into the USB stick *or* you can run SACD Ripper as a server and extract the ISO file from a separate computer attached to your home network. If you choose to rip using a computer, it means you'll also need to configure your PS3 to connect to your home network.
  5. In my case I choose to extract from a "client" PC so using a program called sacd_extract.exe I first extract the ISO files, then run sacd_extract again with different parameters to extract the individual tracks. Here you have a choice again to extract to either the Sony or Philips version (I use the Philips DSDIFF version).
  6. At this point, you'll have a bunch of tracks in folders ready to be streamed. Now you need a music player that can do it. I tried both PureMusic (Mac) and HQplayer (Windows). There is another learning curve here that's not to be underestimated :)
  7. Finally, you need a DAC that you've setup to receive DSD. In the case of the Mytek that involved simply connecting to either USB (or Firewire) and selecting those inputs. The Mytek DAC's menu system isn't that difficult to learn if you've used some pro-audio gear before (all you need to understand is their command chart) but compared to plug-and-play audiophile DACs setup is also a bit more complex.
  8. If you still haven't given up at this point, then there's other issues like cataloging/organizing and some ymmv quirks with the DAC and music players and, overall, a general sense that you're playing with hardware/software/firmware platforms have yet to mature! But is it worth it? Hell yeah!
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Re: To stream the impossible stream

Postby rtsyrtsy » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:39 am

Oh indeed, how long is a ball of string is the rule when it comes to hi-res streaming!

I've finally settled down my FLAC/ALAC from a RAID streaming thing and am quite happy with my CD rips, few hi-res tracks, and my daughter's MP3s. I'm sure I can have better but at this stage, I don't want to hear it!

Thanks for sharing the detailed recipe.

I get into things like this when I'm bored (clues you in that I've been watching BBC's Sherlock series).

This seems to be something I'd like to try when it's 55 degrees Centigrade outside, with a Mission Impossible 4 grade sandstorm raging (BTW, after 7 yrs in Dubai, I've never experienced anything close to what Tom Cruise went through), and my Internet access at home is down. :lol:

Sounds like a trip to Coney Island next time I am in NYC to experience this is in order. (Sorry, I just invited myself.) Yet again, I'm not sure whether my real motivation is the listening or the eating!

Lastly, the way Pubby holds that Swiffer tells me that apart from being a pianist and a guitarist, he'd probably do well as a drummer. :)
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Re: To stream the impossible stream

Postby ttommy » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:25 am

rtsyrtsy wrote:Oh indeed, how long is a ball of string is the rule when it comes to hi-res streaming!

I've finally settled down my FLAC/ALAC from a RAID streaming thing and am quite happy with my CD rips, few hi-res tracks, and my daughter's MP3s. I'm sure I can have better but at this stage, I don't want to hear it!

Hi Res PCM just has so much more momentum behind it that I doubt DSD streaming will be that proverbial game changer. I haven't had a chance to compare (nor am really interested in) say, 24/192 vs DSD, using the same tracks because the mastering would've been done in one technology anyway. But for a very narrow niche of DSD recordings-- those Channel Classics, Pentatones and Telarcs-- the sound is very competitive with analog. Finally, I can say that in my rig digital has finally "arrived." :geek:

Haven't seen MI4, saw one episode of BBC Sherlock and as far as coming over, let's just say we won't need Hill Country anymore ;)
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Re: To stream the impossible stream

Postby detubo » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:19 am

hey tommy i too got the digital bug but in my case i have about 700 CDs that i was quite happy listening too with my then Meridian 588. i recently purchased a 13" macpro to act as my entertainment center. i rushed this purchased after hearing that all succeeding macpro won't have the dvd drive anymore. its now connected to my semi-diy 30lbs tda 1543 based NOS dac with a beefy power supply (amp sized edrel ptx + 2-chokes) with either a m2tech+siltech or halide. still have not decided which i like more among the two. with my ipad on hand and apple remote app, i'm slouched on my sofa playing whatever i feel. SUPER CONVENIENCE!! i think i still like the sound of my 588 more but some times you just wanna do the dougie like you just don't care. SACD streaming will probably be my next project only if there are enough software but it probably can wait too since my dac only does 16 bits, 44khz. in the meantime, happy camper ako
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Re: To stream the impossible stream

Postby ttommy » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:48 pm

Congrats detubs, although it sounds almost heretical to hear a dyed-in-the-wool tubero/analogista admitting to the digital bug ;) But your description of your NOS DAC based on a TDA1543 with it's 30lb PS makes me imagine its sound as very dense and palpable! I had an Ack dAck (TDA1545?) before and it had timing, naturalness and ease to it's performance typical of NOS but as it was battery powered, dynamics wasn't there and it felt like it lacked a solid foundation. So I think your approach with a beefy PS takes that NOS sound to another level.

Btw, there's a product out there that can let you DIY your DSD DAC. Check out exD by clicking on the picture below:

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There's also support using JRiver and apparently Audirvana music players and it's not just PureMusic and HQplayer that can stream DSD.
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