The great speaker wire debate rolls on...

[troporobo]

Siegfried Linkwitz, who has forgotten more about speakers and sound quality than most designers will ever learn, is also a non-believer and recommends zip cord with his Orions. But he has also implemented an active crossover with nothing between the amp and driver

That doesn't change the fact that people hear differences between cables. Its not just a placebo effect

This topic always ends up divided between believers and non-believers, with neither side willing to sit together and listen to the same demo. Just like religion and politics, its probably best to keep the two groups in separate rooms, or talk about the weather!

[audiophileman2002]

Siegfried Linkwitz, who has forgotten more about speakers and sound quality than most designers will ever learn, is also a non-believer and recommends zip cord with his Orions. But he has also implemented an active crossover with nothing between the amp and driver

That doesn't change the fact that people hear differences between cables. Its not just a placebo effect

This topic always ends up divided between believers and non-believers, with neither side willing to sit together and listen to the same demo. Just like religion and politics, its probably best to keep the two groups in separate rooms, or talk about the weather!

This is very true. I think the more appropriate thread name should be 'The great speaker wire debate. . . for the believers'.

[JackD201]

It gets rather amusing looking in from the outside with one group calling the other psychosomatic and the other group calling the other deaf.

The REALLY amusing part is seeing how some people take this much too seriously.

[Guest]

Somebody who knows more about electrical engineering than I do, please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes . . .

As far as I understand , its not necessarily the cable by itself that makes an audible difference (though could be, I have an open mind on that point), but its interaction with the amp and speakers that makes the difference. This is precisely because amp+cable+speaker=circuit. The cable isn't just carrying a signal, but its LCR characteristics are interacting with the components at either end and possibly changing their behaviour, which could even vary with frequency. In other words, each new cable in effect creates a subtly different circuit as a whole

any thoughts?

Sir, my technical knowhow is the same as you. Based on the tests I performed using an LCR meter on the audio frequency (50Hz to 20KHz) range:

1. The "L" or inductance is fairly constant (about 1 - 2microhenries) among different cable configurations. As such, "L" is a non-issue.

2. The "R" or DC resistance ranges from a few milliohms to a few hundred milliohms. This represents a voltage drop and can be compensated by increasing the volume knob.

3. The "C" or capacitance ranges from a hundred picofarads to a few nanofarads. As you may know, a capacitor acts as a low pass filter as such high frequency signals are attenuated significantly. This explains why we hear less signals at the 15KHz up with increasing capacitance.
- With measurements approaching the nanofarad range the stop band ranges closer to the 20KHz frequency (limitation of the human ear). As this increases further can approach 15KHz.

With the above values, it is reasonable to say that most amplifiers can operate properly and will not oscillate across the audio spectrum (DC to 20KHz). In fact, it can operate up to a few megahertz without oscillating (verified through simulation and actual gain/phase analyzer tests).

The only issue here is since most exotic cables display high capacitances and often carry astronomical costs, are you prepared to bite this bullet? Since our objective is to have low values on R, L and C to get the most transparent and natural sound, the increased deviation of capacitance from the ideal carries with it "a picofarad for a peso". Pumapangit iyung electrical performance pero nagbibigay ng tuwa? Paano?? Siyempre, kung ano ang source dapat iyun din ang ilalabas di ba? Kaya nga transparent. Ok lang kung amp, speaker o audio source ang gastusan pero pati ba naman wire? Nagkatalo lang sa capacitance. Puwede ka naman magdagdag ng capacitor sa kable mo (iyung ceramic o polyster capacitor di ka aabutin ng P50) at papantay ka na sa mga mamahalin. Saan ka pa?

[JackD201]

Dear Guest, thank you for your inputs. We invite you to formally join Wiredstate. Registration and Membership is free. Thank you.

JackD201, moderator tech archives

[audiophileman2002]

Don't know exactly what high end cable was tested by the 'guest' on the LCR but there are many high end cables out there that have low capacitances lower in fact than many oridinary cables. Furthermore, I don't quite agree that L is fairly constant and a non issue. It is desirable to have a lower inductance to reduce inductance related distortion. It is also desirable to have a lower resistance and not just compensate with the volume control. A mere increase in volume control is also raising the noise level. There are users out there using SET amps especially the 2A3 giving out a mighty 3 watts output, every bit of voltage drop counts and every bit of lessened inductance matters.

Don't think it is a simple measurement by an LCR meter will suffice. What about signal generation and viewing the signal in waveform (say a square wave) on an dual trace oscilloscope in an input / output tests. What can be seen on the scope on a pink noise signal? What about a test to replicate a constant current change as seen and measured on a scope?

The bottom line is if one can't hear any difference for the better (depending on users taste) between an ordinary cable and a high end one, DON'T BUY THE HIGH END CABLE.

[rascal101]

Somebody who knows more about electrical engineering than I do, please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes . . .

As far as I understand , its not necessarily the cable by itself that makes an audible difference (though could be, I have an open mind on that point), but its interaction with the amp and speakers that makes the difference. This is precisely because amp+cable+speaker=circuit. The cable isn't just carrying a signal, but its LCR characteristics are interacting with the components at either end and possibly changing their behaviour, which could even vary with frequency. In other words, each new cable in effect creates a subtly different circuit as a whole

any thoughts?

NICE!

Sir, my technical knowhow is the same as you. Based on the tests I performed using an LCR meter on the audio frequency (50Hz to 20KHz) range:

1. The "L" or inductance is fairly constant (about 1 - 2microhenries) among different cable configurations. As such, "L" is a non-issue.

2. The "R" or DC resistance ranges from a few milliohms to a few hundred milliohms. This represents a voltage drop and can be compensated by increasing the volume knob.

3. The "C" or capacitance ranges from a hundred picofarads to a few nanofarads. As you may know, a capacitor acts as a low pass filter as such high frequency signals are attenuated significantly. This explains why we hear less signals at the 15KHz up with increasing capacitance.
- With measurements approaching the nanofarad range the stop band ranges closer to the 20KHz frequency (limitation of the human ear). As this increases further can approach 15KHz.

With the above values, it is reasonable to say that most amplifiers can operate properly and will not oscillate across the audio spectrum (DC to 20KHz). In fact, it can operate up to a few megahertz without oscillating (verified through simulation and actual gain/phase analyzer tests).

The only issue here is since most exotic cables display high capacitances and often carry astronomical costs, are you prepared to bite this bullet? Since our objective is to have low values on R, L and C to get the most transparent and natural sound, the increased deviation of capacitance from the ideal carries with it "a picofarad for a peso". Pumapangit iyung electrical performance pero nagbibigay ng tuwa? Paano?? Nagkatalo lang sa capacitance. Puwede ka naman magdagdag ng capacitor sa kable mo (iyung ceramic o polyster capacitor di ka aabutin ng P50) at papantay ka na sa mga mamahalin. Saan ka pa?

Hindi ko nga lang makita sa simulation o testing iyung pagkakaiba. Haayyy ... buhay "audiophile" ...

[rascal101]

Don't know exactly what high end cable was tested by the 'guest' on the LCR but there are many high end cables out there that have low capacitances lower in fact than many oridinary cables. Furthermore, I don't quite agree that L is fairly constant and a non issue. It is desirable to have a lower inductance to reduce inductance related distortion. It is also desirable to have a lower resistance and not just compensate with the volume control. A mere increase in volume control is also raising the noise level. There are users out there using SET amps especially the 2A3 giving out a mighty 3 watts output, every bit of voltage drop counts and every bit of lessened inductance matters.

Don't think it is a simple measurement by an LCR meter will suffice. What about signal generation and viewing the signal in waveform (say a square wave) on an dual trace oscilloscope in an input / output tests. What can be seen on the scope on a pink noise signal? What about a test to replicate a constant current change as seen and measured on a scope?

The bottom line is if one can't hear any difference for the better (depending on users taste) between an ordinary cable and a high end one, DON'T BUY THE HIGH END CABLE.

Sir, what freq does pink noise operate? A square wave at 20KHz, the harmonics to make this square wave are above that, can you hear them??? You can use the fourier series to verify what I am talking about. Constant current??? I don't quite understand what you are driving at??? I know the input to the base of the push-pull stage is made constant current to maintain topology eg class A, AB or B. Pls elaborate.

Why do you have to pick on the LCR meter if you are comparing vs freq? Will the oscilloscope show you a gain vs freq graph? I thought this was the job of the gain/phase analyzer. I didn't see anything when I used one. I used the oscilloscope to compare output and input. Up to 400KHz I didn't see any change. Can you pls show me your waveforms.

If you advocate the high end cables, I have no problem with that but if you are just going to criticize results without

1. Actual test measurements or
2. Simulation results or
3. Calculation

you're out of line.

[arnoldc]

rascal101, if you don't believe audiophileman, why don't you test the flat Goertz speaker cable against an Analysis Plus. As audiophileman said, there are users like me, who runs with 3 watts or even one watt of power. hindi bingi yung mga taong nakarinig nung nag cause ng distortion sa amp ko yung Goertz.

on a similar note, can your facility provide testing and measurements such as power output, frequency response, distortion, input sensitivity, etc. for our commercial Tono amps? we would be interested in your services.

[rascal101]

rascal101, if you don't believe audiophileman, why don't you test the flat Goertz speaker cable against an Analysis Plus. As audiophileman said, there are users like me, who runs with 3 watts or even one watt of power. hindi bingi yung mga taong nakarinig nung nag cause ng distortion sa amp ko yung Goertz.

on a similar note, can your facility provide testing and measurements such as power output, frequency response, distortion, input sensitivity, etc. for our commercial Tono amps? we would be interested in your services.

We design and develop switched mode power supplies and can measure the parameters you mentioned. We can also measure conducted or radiated emi. However, we do not offer any outside services. I performed my testing after office hours.

I do not challenge you guys if you can hear the difference, just wanted to share my test results and welcome challenges to such.

As a parallel activity, can you try an ordinary two wire (AWG 11) and put a 1nF cap or two 1nF caps in series at the speaker termination. Pls try up to 3.3nF.

[rascal101]

BTW, I was using an LCR meter (Agilent 4284A) with level voltage of 1V and 10mA current. As such the input power is 10mW. We use this equipment as incoming test on component vendors.

[arnoldc]

rascal101, ay sayang. we have been looking for a test/measurement company eh.

[rascal101]

Will try to contact some friends from semicon companies. Or if you want I can send you a list of equipment you may want to purchase to test your gear.

[arnoldc]

rascal101, we'd like independent testing company sana. salamat!

[rascal101]

Don't have the money to purchase the cables that you mentioned. However, if you can lend me one I will test it for you. Regarding the gain/phase analyzer tests, one of the team leaders bought one for about US$10-20k. You may want to buy one to test amp stability vs freq and different load conditions. You won't regret it. Also a digital oscilloscope with bandwidth of 400MHz costs less than US$10k these days. If you want the cheaper one - analog scope 1MHz it will be lower than Php 50k.

[rascal101]

Don't know exactly what high end cable was tested by the 'guest' on the LCR but there are many high end cables out there that have low capacitances lower in fact than many oridinary cables. Furthermore, I don't quite agree that L is fairly constant and a non issue. It is desirable to have a lower inductance to reduce inductance related distortion. It is also desirable to have a lower resistance and not just compensate with the volume control. A mere increase in volume control is also raising the noise level. There are users out there using SET amps especially the 2A3 giving out a mighty 3 watts output, every bit of voltage drop counts and every bit of lessened inductance matters.

Once you use insulating material other than air you would definitely have capacitance. If you are referring to high end cables (not twisted) using teflon insulation yes it will have lower parasitics (hence lower capacitance). Better performance yes but at audio freq??? Raising noise level ... if your amp has good layout and noise is properly filtered, do you have to worry? If you don't trust your amp dump it and buy a better one. 3 watts or < 1 watt, does this matter? Most speaker wires even two wire have acceptable parasitics as long as wire gauge is correct for application. If you overload your wire then it matters. Or by sheer coincidence the wire impedance is higher than speaker impedance you have a problem. Mali siguro kabit ng speaker wire o di kaya may sira na siya.

You can't avoid inductance specially if you're using stranded wires. You might want to try a flat thin wire. You'd definitely see lower inductance. But at 1 or 2uH I don't understand how this can be significant. Yes it is acting as a low pass filter but it is not filtering 20KHz and below.

[bruno]

Rascal 101,

Pahiram ko sa iyo yung July 1993 issue ko ng Audio magazine which has Fred E. Davis' article, "Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility". He tested a dozen different cables including woven/braided multiconductor cables, zip cords and automotive jumper cables!

Fred E. Davis is also the author of "Effects of Cable, Loudspeaker, and Amplifier Interactions" from the Journal of Audio Engineering Society.

[rascal101]

Rascal 101,

Pahiram ko sa iyo yung July 1993 issue ko ng Audio magazine which has Fred E. Davis' article, "Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility". He tested a dozen different cables including woven/braided multiconductor cables, zip cords and automotive jumper cables!

Fred E. Davis is also the author of "Effects of Cable, Loudspeaker, and Amplifier Interactions" from the Journal of Audio Engineering Society.

Thank you Sir Bruno. Ikaw rin ba iyung nasa PinoyDVD? Kung ikaw nga, daan ka na lang sa office. I-test natin iyung capacitors mo. Para sa akin kasi mas gusto ko na lang gumalaw sa amplifier o speaker. Hindi ko lang matanggap na gumastos para sa mga wire. Kaya ko namang gayahin iyung electrical performance nila at di pa ako gagastos ng maraming pera. Iyun sana ang gusto kong sabihin sa mga advocates ng speaker cables. Kung nais mong pumantay, mas mura ang makapal na wire o capacitor. Hindi rin mahirap gawin. Whether naniniwala ka o hindi, you have the best of both worlds.

[rascal101]

Eto po ang mga naging basehan ko,

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/aud ... nance.html
http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
http://sound.westhost.com/cablewhitepaper.htm
http://sound.westhost.com/cable-z.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
electrical test at bench.

[audiophileman2002]

All I'm saying is that cables are tested not just with a simple LCR meter. There are other test instruments involved like an oscilloscope, signal generator, etc. Other influences cannot be quantified by the LCR but can be seen in a scope. There would be differences. As to filtering in the pre-amp and power amp (specially the mighty 3 watt) you have limitations specially the no feedback pre-amps and power amps. That is why you have the SET which is single ended.
If one is a believer in the ordinary zip cords fine, if one is a believer in the high end ones that is also fine. After all we all live in free countries and pretty much can do what we want. Right? The most important issue is we use what we are happy with? Or shall I say one is happy on what one can hear.