The great speaker wire debate rolls on...

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The great speaker wire debate rolls on...

Postby mozilla » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:28 pm

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Postby dogears » Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:01 pm

to hear to is to believe :)
i was comparing 4 diff spkr cables this weekend but did not hear any at all. could it be very system dependent :?: 'will borrow some hi end/priced spkr cables and hopefully hear something. either way, my extra budget goes to acoustic treatments :wink:
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Postby arnoldc » Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:43 pm

mozilla, you were at BenC's place when i brought my DIY 2A3 to match with his Voigts. you heard the difference between the flat Goertz spaker wire (sorry didn't bother to ask what model) where my 2A3 sounded distorted, lacks pace, and all the bad things you can say and another speaker wire.

when BenC replaced the cable (with something I bothered to ask but i forgot) there was an AUDIBLE difference and the system is now playing music.

so dogears, yes it IS system depended.

IMO, IME, FWIW, YMMV.
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Postby joe3rp » Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:52 pm

arnoldc wrote:

so dogears, yes it IS system depended.

IMO, IME, FWIW, YMMV.


Idol,

What do you mean by system dependent?

A revealing system? Since the power amp and speakers are the only ones in contact...it must be the power amp and/or speakers?

So do you think an amp with high damping factor more critical? What about low or high ohm rating speaker? What about length? Shorter better?
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Postby mozilla » Tue Jun 03, 2003 7:18 am

mozilla, you were at BenC's place when i brought my DIY 2A3 to match with his Voigts. you heard the difference between the flat Goertz spaker wire (sorry didn't bother to ask what model) where my 2A3 sounded distorted, lacks pace, and all the bad things you can say and another speaker wire.



Yup, I heard that too. Those Goertz cables are have very low inductance and high capacitance so matching it w/ amp & speaker is crucial.

For related info see:
The Naked Truth About Cables
Last edited by mozilla on Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dogears » Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:25 am

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Postby Audio_Tyro » Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:32 pm

Being an electrical engineer, I too did not believe that cables/ICs can make a difference. I know the theories behind cable construction and stuffs. There should be no difference. Until I tried van den Huls, then Analysis Plus Ovals, then Audience, and of course heard Audio Note at Darth Hyperion's place. I can now categorically say that cables do bring improvement/degradation to your "sound". System matching is important, as always.

For those who don't seem to hear any difference at all when comparing cables/ICs, perhaps your room has a more profound effect on the final "sound" you are getting more than the cables bring. Afterall, the differences that cable and ICs bring are oftentimes subtle such that an over-imposing room-sound can indeed "swamp" them out.

Another reason is that cables and ICs need significant burn-in time with your system before you'll hear the difference. So in essence, it's not only the cables or ICs that is getting burned-in, but your whole system as well. Your audio chain should be given ample time to "react" to the insertion of a "new" cable or IC, to let current flow through it in a rather "improved" manner.

And on this note, for those who have the dineros, you should try Audience brand cables and Interconnects (Maestro, Conductor, and top-of-the-line Au24). Contact Epoy or Architectural Audio for an audition. Highly recommended expensive cables/ICs. It can really unleash the potential of your dear systems (that you wholeheartedly put together). You deserve to hear it.
Last edited by Audio_Tyro on Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby arnoldc » Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:36 pm

MT, sa wakas nag endorse ka din ng hindi Analysis Plus :lol: kelan ka mag endorse ng hindi REL :twisted:
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Postby Audio_Tyro » Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:30 pm

Haha, hi ArnoldC. Hobbyist lang kasi ako so very often I only recommend those I found to match well with my own system, and to other systems I tried it with. But there are many well-designed stuffs that can deliver consistent superb performance from one system to another. Those are the ones I can safely recommend to our brothers/sisters in this exciting, albeit sometimes perrilous, journey (in search of the elusive sonic nirvana).

Regarding the RELs, with the fast-paced technologies we have nowadays, I think many will copy it (or improve upon it) sooner. So perhaps it won't be long till we hear Chinese brand subs that may deliver the same sub-bass performance. Sabi nga ni M_Shoe_Maker, baka may astig na'ng Konka Sub-bass sytem soon! Yeah right. hehe.
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Postby Racio » Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:06 am

dogears wrote:to hear to is to believe :)
i was comparing 4 diff spkr cables this weekend but did not hear any at all.


Do count yourself blessed dogears. 'Coz once you recognize and become aware of each cable's sonic peculiarities, it'll be one helluva wild ride from there! :wink:
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Postby arnel13 » Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:16 am

For me, I just rely on what cabling's recommended by other owners of similar equipment to mine. Personally, I don't find it very exciting to audition differences in sound by different cables. Although I DO hear differences, to me they are not substantial enough to catch my enthusiasm.

I am more enthusiastic about auditioning speakers and electronics to improve sound, rather than cables. But of course, that's just me.
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Postby dogears » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:53 am

[quote="Racio"][quote="dogears"]to hear to is to believe :)
i was comparing 4 diff spkr cables this weekend but did not hear any at all.[/quote]

Do count yourself blessed dogears. 'Coz once you recognize and become aware of each cable's sonic peculiarities, it'll be one helluva wild ride from there! :wink:[/quote]

then, that will be 'justification of cost over improvement' stage :lol: ganyan talaga pag nakakapit sa patalim, este... pera pala :lol: i'd still go for acoustic treatments :wink:
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Postby dogears » Wed Jun 04, 2003 11:43 am

from tnt-audio


The Naked Truth about Speaker-Cables
Bananas, bananas. More lengths of cable talk we have to do....

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
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Postby JackD201 » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:34 pm

Mods please move to Tech Archive. Tnx guys!
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Postby rascal101 » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:05 pm

Audio_Tyro wrote:Being an electrical engineer, I too did not believe that cables/ICs can make a difference. I know the theories behind cable construction and stuffs. There should be no difference. Until I tried van den Huls, then Analysis Plus Ovals, then Audience, and of course heard Audio Note at Darth Hyperion's place. I can now categorically say that cables do bring improvement/degradation to your "sound". System matching is important, as always.

For those who don't seem to hear any difference at all when comparing cables/ICs, perhaps your room has a more profound effect on the final "sound" you are getting more than the cables bring. Afterall, the differences that cable and ICs bring are oftentimes subtle such that an over-imposing room-sound can indeed "swamp" them out.

Another reason is that cables and ICs need significant burn-in time with your system before you'll hear the difference. So in essence, it's not only the cables or ICs that is getting burned-in, but your whole system as well. Your audio chain should be given ample time to "react" to the insertion of a "new" cable or IC, to let current flow through it in a rather "improved" manner.

And on this note, for those who have the dineros, you should try Audience brand cables and Interconnects (Maestro, Conductor, and top-of-the-line Au24). Contact Epoy or Architectural Audio for an audition. Highly recommended expensive cables/ICs. It can really unleash the potential of your dear systems (that you wholeheartedly put together). You deserve to hear it.


Sir, did you perform an electrical test to determine if the input signal is the same as the output signal on the cable? Just wanted to understand how it is possible to have improved responses to exotic cables. Have you tried an ordinary single pair wire and place a 1.5nF at the speaker termination? The high capacitances on these expensive cables helps filter out high freq. - it will act as a low pass filter. Wouldn't this be "cheating"? I thought the whole idea is to pass audio frequency from DC to 20KHz in its entirety.

If you say that there is significant improvement in what you are hearing, have you tried the higher gauge cables eg AWG 11? This way the impedance (and dc resistance) are reduced significantly and should let you hear soft passages without you turning up the volume knob.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks,

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Postby troporobo » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:25 pm

Somebody who knows more about electrical engineering than I do, please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes . . .

As far as I understand , its not necessarily the cable by itself that makes an audible difference (though could be, I have an open mind on that point), but its interaction with the amp and speakers that makes the difference. This is precisely because amp+cable+speaker=circuit. The cable isn't just carrying a signal, but its LCR characteristics are interacting with the components at either end and possibly changing their behaviour, which could even vary with frequency. In other words, each new cable in effect creates a subtly different circuit as a whole

any thoughts?
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Postby JackD201 » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:43 pm

troporobo wrote:Somebody who knows more about electrical engineering than I do, please correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes . . .

As far as I understand , its not necessarily the cable by itself that makes an audible difference (though could be, I have an open mind on that point), but its interaction with the amp and speakers that makes the difference. This is precisely because amp+cable+speaker=circuit. The cable isn't just carrying a signal, but its LCR characteristics are interacting with the components at either end and possibly changing their behaviour, which could even vary with frequency. In other words, each new cable in effect creates a subtly different circuit as a whole

any thoughts?


NICE!
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Postby ringDAC » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:59 pm

for best results, try to know what wires are used inside your speakers (you can always ask the manufacturer), then try to buy the same wire. for example triangle offers the same wire used in their speakers.
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Postby audiophileman2002 » Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:48 am

The cable carries an electrical signal. The difference between the conductors is the purity of the material of the conductor and the manufacturing process of the conductor. Furthermore, silver is approx. 7% more conductive than copper. Also the di electric properties of the insulators. The shielding is also quite important so the RFI and the EMI is not picked up. Deterioration of the conductor also has to be considered as the skin becomes eventually oxidized.
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Postby ichabod » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:32 am

The Roger Russell article on speaker cables is a real eye opener. Anyone who wants to plunk his precious cash on cables will profit more (instead of lose more) reading his comments about speaker cables and what helluva difference it cannot make!

Nice post to calm your audio nerves. He calls Ken Kessler and the likes writing about speakers cables and their "audible" questionable differences as audio perverts! Got a good laugh out of that in the same way KK got a laugh perhaps (he said unpredictable results!) on the LS 3/5A first shoot-out ever.
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