Electricity

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Electricity

Postby zach » Sun May 08, 2005 12:03 am

If theres anything that is driving me nuts in this hobby, its the element of electricity. i have a alot of questions regarding it. its effect for me is one of the bigger differences. here are my questions:

1. why does the sound change when you rotate the plug of any given component a 180 degrees from its original position in the outlet?? i always thought it was polarity thing, but in our country it does not apply, coz our electricity is 110/110 right? the result in change is either more bass or more highs. this happens when all the other equipment is still on while you are doing the rotating (except of course the equipment whose plug you are rotating). however if you turn off all your equipment while you are rotating the plug of the given equipment, and turn on all the equipment in the same order you originaly did it with, wala naman diff. labo. (see next question)

2. why does the sound differ when you turn on your equipment in a particular order? e.g transport first, dac, preamp and then amp. if i turn on the amp first, then preamp, dac to transport, iba nanaman ang tunog. i never bothered trying different combinations. d na. aaargh.

3. why does the sound differ when you plug in in your equipment in diferent outlets? im using a a shunyata hydra plugged into a dedicated outlet going straight to the breaker, yet when i change the position of any plug in the shunyata outlet (e.g dac from shunyata outlet 1 to outlet 4) iba nanaman yung tunog.

anybody out there who can explain this? get ko pag amp, cables, preamp, dac or transport ang usapan......but this electricity thing is too alien.
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Postby edwin » Sun May 08, 2005 7:49 am

Hi Zach,

Here is waht I could say on my limited knowledge.
1. I think it still boils down to the polarity issue even though as you say, we are running on 220v. I have the same experience here in Singapore until I had terminated all my powerstrips, conditioner and powercords on the correct polarity.
2. I have no idea how to answer this question. :?
3. As what I have always read, the most critical component should be plugged on the first socket of your power strip. It is quite logical because it should be the first to get the cleanest supply, with a shorter signal path and lesser contamination from the rest of the equipments.

I hope this helps. Just my 2 cents. Happy tweaking :)
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Postby JackD201 » Sun May 08, 2005 11:14 pm

Zach, you are truly the Tweak Master from Tweak Mastering :lol:
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Postby ichabod » Mon May 09, 2005 10:02 am

Yes, it all boils down to getting the right phase. With the little experimenting I did, I noticed that if you have the right polarity, that is plugging the gear to the outlet in phase, you get a full blown sound that is not hard and what appears to be stiff irritating sound in comparison.

And that comes with listening intently as you do a little comparison. A friend had demonstrated this to us with a simple tester. Accordingly he learned this in HK amongst tube enthusiasts. The one that got me aware was when I got to see from a Luxman amp that incorporated a polarity tester of sorts to the amp itself. And yes what about the majority of those that don't do this? Play it by ear as I always do, still the final arbiter, after you measured something on the tester perhaps.
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Postby KEN2 » Mon May 09, 2005 3:35 pm

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Postby SoFtCliPpEr » Mon May 09, 2005 3:47 pm

Hmmm if there are any changes as you say well first of all I find it hard to understand why you need to do such rotations while listening?

Are we not taught to unplug everything before making any alterations on our connections?

Just my honest opinion.
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Postby dannyb » Mon May 09, 2005 7:52 pm

I hope you also read the part which states that at least one component in the chain be grounded. This is important beacause if a fault occurs in any 1 component and there is no ground path the moment you touch your equipment you become the ground path.

Especially important if you use tube gear were typically the high voltage rails for a PP EL34 is around 450-550V and an 845 or 811 is at 900-1000V.
Definitely lethal voltages.

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Postby JackD201 » Mon May 09, 2005 9:59 pm

Zach which of your components is most susceptible? My MLs run quiet despite extreme dips, the amps normally have enough stored energy to ride out those of short duration. It is something however my tube gear (and turntable motor) don't handle very well.

OR......baka lang your Mastering Suite is so neutral pati iyan naririnig mo na rin. :)
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Re: Electricity

Postby joe3rp » Tue May 10, 2005 7:44 am

zach wrote:
1. why does the sound change when you rotate the plug of any given component a 180 degrees from its original position in the outlet?? i always thought it was polarity thing, but in our country it does not apply, coz our electricity is 110/110 right? the result in change is either more bass or more highs. this happens when all the other equipment is still on while you are doing the rotating (except of course the equipment whose plug you are rotating).

2. why does the sound differ when you turn on your equipment in a particular order? e.g transport first, dac, preamp and then amp. if i turn on the amp first, then preamp, dac to transport, iba nanaman ang tunog. i never bothered trying different combinations. d na. aaargh.

3. why does the sound differ when you plug in in your equipment in diferent outlets? im using a a shunyata hydra plugged into a dedicated outlet going straight to the breaker, yet when i change the position of any plug in the shunyata outlet (e.g dac from shunyata outlet 1 to outlet 4) iba nanaman yung tunog.


No1. You can easilly test this with a multimeter. The connection of the ac power input to different amp/pre manufactures may not often comply to same standard. You have to start with a component as the base..say your pre-amp. Connect one lead of the Multimeter (in Voltage setting) to the case (ground) of the pre-amp. With the components "TURNED ON", touch the other lead to the case of the amp....you might get a voltage reading...now change the plug orientation of the this amp...get a reading...the lower reading will be the better orientation. Reason...some equipment are grounded a certain way....

No.2 I would say that this is a safety reason for the order of source - pre- power to start-up and reverse....power-pre-source to power down. What you don't want is to have an amp powered up....then turn on your pre-amp or source later resulting in a large "thump" caused by capacitors charging or leaking. Your amps like ML have special "protection circuits" which will not allow DC on "NON-Music" to go speakers.

No. 3 Would be the same as No. 1....try it with multi-meter. With the added "filtering " effect of the said boxes.

Just try it and listen...tweekmaster
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Postby zach » Tue May 10, 2005 10:38 am

to edwin:

ey bro, i tried correcting the polarity narin. i have an elfix polarity tester. but i still don't get where the polarity issue comes in. we have no neutral or live. adding a ground to the system does not change what we really have, w/c is 110/110 or 220. i don't think its called polarity. what's your electricity in singapore bro? and the change in sound only happens when everything is turned on when rotating the plug position of lets say the dac. if i turn off everything first, do the rotating, and fire up everything, no diff. did you try that bro? thanx also what equipment did you plug in the first socket of your power strip?
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Postby zach » Tue May 10, 2005 10:45 am

to ichabod:

ey bro did you try doing the rotating thing while everything is off? try this, before listening and while everything is off, rotate the plug of any component. then fire up everything the way you would normanly do, and see if you hear anything out of the ordinary, dapat wala. in my case when i used to do this rotating thing while other components are on i would wake up the next day to find out that despite all the rotating, its back to how it would sound when normaly fired up.
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Postby zach » Tue May 10, 2005 10:54 am

to soft clipper:

ey bro, its the same reason why i change speaker cables, interrconnects, do speaker positioning etc..... there's a difference and im bored.... and when i do get those rare free nights to just tinker with my system, i find great joy in trying to answer the whys whats and hows of it all, and most importantly, i wanna get it right. it helps me with what i do. had i not known about this issue on electricity then i would'nt have bothered. ignorance is bliss ika nga. this is all mang dima's fault!!!!:D he should not have lent me that elfix polarity tester! :lol:
Last edited by zach on Tue May 10, 2005 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zach » Tue May 10, 2005 10:56 am

JackD201 wrote:Zach which of your components is most susceptible? My MLs run quiet despite extreme dips, the amps normally have enough stored energy to ride out those of short duration. It is something however my tube gear (and turntable motor) don't handle very well.

OR......baka lang your Mastering Suite is so neutral pati iyan naririnig mo na rin. :)


ey man, its the same effect with any component. just as long as the premise is that everything is on while doing the rotating (cept fot the component concerned)
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Postby edwin » Tue May 10, 2005 12:27 pm

zach wrote:to edwin:

ey bro, i tried correcting the polarity narin. i have an elfix polarity tester. but i still don't get where the polarity issue comes in. we have no neutral or live. adding a ground to the system does not change what we really have, w/c is 110/110 or 220. i don't think its called polarity. what's your electricity in singapore bro? and the change in sound only happens when everything is turned on when rotating the plug position of lets say the dac. if i turn off everything first, do the rotating, and fire up everything, no diff. did you try that bro? thanx also what equipment did you plug in the first socket of your power strip?


Hi Zach,

I did the rotation when the other components was "OFF" and I did hear a difference. Singapore is using 220V/50Hz but UK type of plug.

I always make it a point that the first on the chain to be the first connected on the socket, CD - Pre-amp - Amp. It is even better that a separate powerstrip/conditioner be used on your digital and analogue components.

The sound of my system also is not on full potential when the Computer on my kids room is "ON". It somehow transmitting noise in the house. At the moment, I will be making a conditioner for my PC and see if this will improve my situation.

I hope this helps.

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Postby zach » Wed May 11, 2005 4:30 pm

ok thanks
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Postby noctilux » Sat May 14, 2005 2:07 pm

zach wrote:to ichabod:

ey bro did you try doing the rotating thing while everything is off? try this, before listening and while everything is off, rotate the plug of any component. then fire up everything the way you would normanly do, and see if you hear anything out of the ordinary, dapat wala. in my case when i used to do this rotating thing while other components are on i would wake up the next day to find out that despite all the rotating, its back to how it would sound when normaly fired up.


Kamusta Zach!

My 2 cents:
Yes we do have live. Actually both lines are live, 115 Vac on both lines. If you have a third line, which is your earth/ground, that should be your reference to polarity. The lowest ground to chassis voltage should give you the right polarity daw. This means putting a cheater plug on your powercord, attach one end of your voltmeter probe to the chassis to be tested and your ground at the outlet. The lower voltage on both plug orientations should be the right polarity. I was doing this in the 90's with much OC-ness, tapos tinamad na ko.
Our power is way, way better than in the states where they have a live an neutral line. We have both lines live, therefore we have BALANCED power, which will always be better than living in the States, except of course for the white chicks and four seasons...
Hope this helps.
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Postby zach » Sat May 14, 2005 6:14 pm

ey man! thanks! youre right, parang ikaw, tinamad na rin ako. hehe. f**k it. pwede na to. :D
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Re: Electricity

Postby tony » Wed May 18, 2005 10:04 am

zach wrote:If theres anything that is driving me nuts in this hobby, its the element of electricity. i have a alot of questions regarding it. its effect for me is one of the bigger differences. here are my questions:

1. why does the sound change when you rotate the plug of any given component a 180 degrees from its original position in the outlet?? i always thought it was polarity thing, but in our country it does not apply, coz our electricity is 110/110 right? the result in change is either more bass or more highs. this happens when all the other equipment is still on while you are doing the rotating (except of course the equipment whose plug you are rotating). however if you turn off all your equipment while you are rotating the plug of the given equipment, and turn on all the equipment in the same order you originaly did it with, wala naman diff. labo. (see next question)

2. why does the sound differ when you turn on your equipment in a particular order? e.g transport first, dac, preamp and then amp. if i turn on the amp first, then preamp, dac to transport, iba nanaman ang tunog. i never bothered trying different combinations. d na. aaargh.

3. why does the sound differ when you plug in in your equipment in diferent outlets? im using a a shunyata hydra plugged into a dedicated outlet going straight to the breaker, yet when i change the position of any plug in the shunyata outlet (e.g dac from shunyata outlet 1 to outlet 4) iba nanaman yung tunog.

anybody out there who can explain this? get ko pag amp, cables, preamp, dac or transport ang usapan......but this electricity thing is too alien.


anwers can be found herehttp://www.google.com.ph/search?hl=tl&q=electricity&btnG=Hanapin+sa+Google&meta=
safety first, electricity kills!!!
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Postby zetroce » Wed May 18, 2005 9:34 pm

Hey Zach,

This might be a clocking or timing issue. Maybe the reason why the sound changed is because hindi na synchronized yung signal transmission. Kaya when you pulled out one of the components from the power strip, then rotated it, baka na-disrupt yung synchronization niya since all the other components were turned on at the same time. That is why when you turn it on the next morning eh synchronized na ulit sila because power was fed to all the components at the same time. :?

This often happens in telecommunications. That is why all the components from end to end has to be synchronized, taking clocking feed from only one source.

Just a wild guess. :)
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Postby zach » Fri May 20, 2005 2:50 am

ya know ive been thinking about the exact same thing..... kaya minsan ang gulogulo pag shootout. d mo na malaman kung ano ang tama. just recently i got lost with powercords and conditioners. nakaka lito! had spectral and nlsy come over to help me out and reset my ears. pero is there any study on this? like some white paper or something?......grabe ang bored natin no?
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