Improving Imaging

[mozilla]

Try this:
http://www.audiophysic.de/info/aufstellung/index_e.html

[SoFtCliPpEr]

qguy,

fld is correct to say that most of the imaging problems are room related. He left no stone unturned to invest on this area as he disclosed when I had a chat with him recently. I for one suffer from a very unforgiving room condition check out my set up on members thread. I am now considering
an option by RIVES PARC (PARAMETRIC ADAPTIVE ROOM CORRECTION) it woudn't hurt for you to check this out http://www.rivesaudio.com/home/home.html

[qguy]

thanks for the explanation....Now I know why the Wilson Audio X-1 did not sound right in the shop in Mega mall....they did not have a mirror big enough to see the X-1..

Seriously about 7 years ago there was an X-1 or something similar to the X-1 was at Megamall Listening room, When I saw the beast I could not help myself to sit on the sofa..and listen.... hey how often do you get a chance to listen to such equipment...then w/o warning the words came out of my mouth..."Bakit pangit ang tunog" then the "saleman" who was fixing something said..."Ah..were still tweaking the system"...

I can just imagine what the "salesman" was thinking after I left unimpressed.."what nerve !!!"


BTW...it was also at Listening room where I heard a DQ loudspeaker with a excellent imaging... I could swear Karen Carpenter was hiding behind the loudspeaker...

[SoFtCliPpEr]

qguy

for all you know she was ingat ka hehehe

[mozilla]

My client got that after we auditioned some other units in San Francisco beforehand. I was able the hear that X1 in the proper setup in his house. It took weeks to get the right position with numerous masking tape x-marks on the floor for diffferent possible locations.

In fact, Dave Wilson himself flew in to set that up.

Good thing there are casters on that monster so it's quite easy to move around..

[amandarae]

qguy,

Ikaw naman! Di naman kasing laki ng speaker ang mirror na kailangan. Big enough to see the full reflection lang

If so, duon sa X1 baka building na kailangan d'on!

[qguy]

Amandarae

I'm scared to use a mirror...baka magustuhan ng misis ko at ma permanent sa First reflection point....patay


Mozilla,

What do I do with the First reflection..kill it right ?

[amandarae]

qguy,

I'm scared to use a mirror...baka magustuhan ng misis ko at ma permanent sa First reflection point....patay

I hear ya!

[amandarae]

mozilla,

Thanks for the link. Very informative!

[mozilla]

Amandarae

What do I do with the First reflection..kill it right ?

Most people put absorbers there yes. But bear in mind that the density of the absorber affects it's effectivity. You are actually trying to reduce air flow rather than "sound" so the (foam) material must not be too dense that it in effect acts as a reflector instead of an absorber.

[SoFtCliPpEr]

yeah yeah yeah

SoFtCliPpEr <----------- Is gobbling up all the data!!!!!

[qguy]

well I actuall placed a line of pillow and the loudspeaker cover on the right wall on top of the sofa.. I am pretty sure I hit the first reflection point hehehe...there was an improvment, since when my wife remove some of the pillows the sound change..I was actually surprised that a pillow did that ...

[mozilla]

The rule of thumb is...If you can blow air through it then it's what you need.

[av_phile]

I've always believed that stereo imaging was more a function of the speaker's sound propagation character and placement as well as room accoustics. I thought I had achieved the best possible sound stage imaging with my old set-up. Until I got new and better amps.

There is some wisdom to that old concept that an exellent stereo separation in preamps and amps can give the stereo sweep a more spacious expansiveness and more accurate soundstaging. Never really gave much thought and weight to that. Until I got a stereo Acurus amp that was essentially two monoblocks in one. The separation is 95db. My old reciever amps were only 75db. Boy was it a revelation. Usng the same speakers and placement, not only did the stereo image seemed wider, the center imaging became more focused. No wonder serious audiophiles prefer the complete interchannel isolation afforded by monoblocks.

[rtsyrtsy]

In general, the ideal distance from a side wall is infinity. Unless it's a speaker designed to be near side walls such as those designed to be shoe-horned into a corner.

It's good you're happy with the KEF's acting as subs. That's the whole point of this hobby.

[ichabod]

Pillow doing that? I could hardly disagree.

If you wish to tame early reflections, yes a pillow or two might work depending on how energy your tweeter churns out. High frequencies are but 2 inches long. But if you soak them too much with thicker paddings than say 2inches, you may cut some of the liveliness as well and cut the tweeter's ability to define those images.

I think room treat is good but they can be expensive. A very good compromise would be to stuff your listening room with an odd assortment of objects that can reflect, disperse, and absorb. Strike a balance by moving and rearranging things in the speaker's path, and you have a good point source that typically mimics a nice cozy pub or the concert hall effect from the spot where you're seated.

This works all the time for me. I hate spending more for something that can just be duplicated easily and for free!

[jetm]

qguy

I can tell you firsthand that your Celestions can image well beyond speaker boundaries. To be specific: Soundtrack of The Empire Strikes Back. Horns blasting away well above and to the side of the right speaker. Violins stretching way past the left speaker.

I heard them do that set up in a big room, using the exact same equipment I used to have (Quad electronics, generic ICs, cheap branded cables). I was never able to reproduce the same stage in any of my rooms.

So, it's the room.

The room I first heard them in was a big living room. The speakers were set up against the back wall to reinforce their bass. As you might conclude this proximity to the back wall did nothing to screw up the soundstage. However, the ceilings were high (10 feet, est.) and the nearest side wall was about 8 feet away.

So to me the "measure of success" of good and well-applied room treatments, specific to this speaker pair, is whether they can make a smaller room sound like that room.

[mozilla]

I think room treat is good but they can be expensive. A very good compromise would be to stuff your listening room with an odd assortment of objects that can reflect, disperse, and absorb. Strike a balance by moving and rearranging things in the speaker's path, and you have a good point source that typically mimics a nice cozy pub or the concert hall effect from the spot where you're seated.

This works all the time for me. I hate spending more for something that can just be duplicated easily and for free!

I agree on setting up a good mix of hard/soft accsssories & furniture but "room Treatment" needn't be expensive.

Well not in the near future if my new babies are successful.

What's cooking in Mozilla's lab aside from cables, racks & speaker stands? Secret acoustic experiments...

Cheap, GAF seal of approval...

Here's a sampler of initial tests...



The Bue line shows the in-room response curve of the untreated room. The Red line shows the response with the panels in place. Notice the smoother curve especially in the 67 and 126hz region where there is a smoothening of the plot...

[ARE]

Hi Mozilla.

I am interested on how the graph was plotted and generated. Did you use some sort of a signal gen to generate the test tones, or a cd covering the low-to-hi frequencies in increments? I have a same cd but only for the lower frequencies. If it is a cd, mind sharing where to get one?

On the graph, is there some sort of freeware for this?

Thanks for pointing me to the right direction

[qguy]

rtsyrtsy,

hmm Ideal distance between sidewall is infinity...okay so 1.5 feet is a little bit off
time to add more pillows....

jetm,

thanks for the info...will try Empire Strikes back later... is this the John Williams / Telarc version ?

mozilla,

Moz...thanks for all the advise...