Improving Imaging

[qguy]

another question...

I have good bass output in my system everywhere ....EXCEPT my listening position (4-5 feet away from all walls), I read something that the refected bass frequencies once it reaches my seat cancels out the first wave...all I need to do is Kill that reflected wave right ?...

Where should I more or less concentrate on putting pillows or whatever sound absorbing materials ? on the side walls or on the back wall ?

thanks

[ichabod]

Someone told my suggestion (not mine really) is still a compromise. And I quickly said yes, between the husband and the wife. Politically as JM would always say, that is correct!

WAF wag lang MAF iba na yan ArnoldC!

[qguy]

ichabod,

whats MAF ?

[qguy]

Guys,

I was browsing some sites and I saw this...

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/wp.htm

not exactly WAF friendly, hey I myself would not put it in my living room....but if you frame them like a painting and instead of the plain cover place a cross stich design in the middle and hang them on the wall....cgurado ako PASADO kay missis yan !!! lalo na kung yung missis mo yung gumawa ng cross stitch !!!..

[mozilla]

qguy,

Give us the dimensions of your listening area - LxWxH and lets' see what comes up..

[mozilla]

are,

It's my friend's s/w. I don't know if there are freeware apps but I ran into some before. I might have them around and will post the links.

Some shareware like true audio RTA have basic features that are free.

[arnoldc]

Harman published a freeware (Excel) that can do that. I have a copy, and i cannot remember the Harman URL. holler if you want a copy.

[arnoldc]

geez, i just found the URL - http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=131

[arnoldc]

qguy, you might be interested in this - Part Two:Making a good loudspeaker - imaging, space and great sound in rooms.

[qguy]

Thanks !!!

qguy, you might be interested in this - Part Two:Making a good loudspeaker - imaging, space and great sound in rooms.

[qguy]

here is the room, drawn not to scale

http://www.pbase.com/qguy2000/room

The RED images is setup1, which has a very good CENTER image, Laidback singers appear about 2 feet from the loudspeakers , but not much sound coming from the sides

The BLUE Images is Setup 2 which, I just tried last night. It had a weaker, but acceptable center image and since the loudspeakers are farther apart I got a wider soundstage.....heres the kicker, the right wall is mostly compose of 2 open doors and a window with curtains...while Listening to Telarc's Start Tracks...track # 9...I heard someonce pouncing on the door..then when I looked no one was there..wait a minute...I hit pause and the pouncing stopped ...hit play the pouncing started again ...heck no one was pouncing on the door... but it was what I think a was some sort of SNARE drum being heard 6 feet to the right of the right Speaker... I grinned at myself YES Finally !!!...but sadly this was the only effect that had images well beyond the loudspeakers...

[jetm]

Good job!

One other thing I failed to mention is to try (only in case you haven't) to point them straight ahead, not toed in. In all the demos of our speakers in which I heard them image well, they were not toed in but pointing dead straight. A couple of reviews I remember mentioned that as well.

[ichabod]

Very good point raised by jetm.

I find the no toe-in to be more effective on the LS 3/5a just to buttress that point.

But I also believe that you must consider or ask the question whether your speakers are the direct radiating kind or the point source type. There'll be a difference I think.

You can find the review of the harbeth 40s by Robert E. Greene of TAS, there's a discussion there mentioning the merits of a point source speakers. If you can imagine throwing a pebble on a still pond, and see its effect as it ripples bigger and bigger, that is a good analogy of a point source speakers. The sound does not fire directly at you. I remember he even used a dali speakers to illustrate the opposite -- the direct sound inherent to the Dali as oppose to the harbeth 40s.

Now curiously, that is where some of your answers might be.

Go figure. It may improve your image?

[jetm]

I hasten to add that I was referring specifically to the Celestion SL6s/i, regarding no toe-in.And, yes, James, I remember your LS's work quite well pointing straight ahead, too.

I just wanted to make sure that no one mistakes my post for a generic toe-in/no toe-in debate. I'm sure that other speakers (like my other speakers) like some toe-in.

[alizaso]

One good option is to experiment on speaker placement, distance, toeing in, etc.

[JackD201]

Mods, Please move to Tech Archives

Thanks!

Jack

[JackD201]

To sum up this thread here are what the members have suggested:

1. Speaker Placement
2. A banned guy suggested changing ICs
3. One said get better speakers
4. Many said address room issues
5. One said better electronics

The fact of the matter is that all of these are factors that each of us, regardless of how simple or exotic the system, must deal with.

Here is the 1-2-3 guide for dummies to acheive the best imaging in any room.

1. Know your speaker. Some speakers require a lot of space behind them (pointsource monitors, rear ported speakers), some do not (Planar Magnetics, front porters, linesources). Some require freedom from side walls etc.

2. Situate your speakers along the wall that best approximates the requirement and practical considerations such as actually having to live in that room

3. This is IMPORTANT: Define the 4ft sphere in which your head in your final listening position will be. This is the crucial area, the FOCAL POINT that all this work is about. Set up your chair there and proceed.

4. When playing go for TONAL BALANCE FIRST. More bass get closer to boundaries, more highs focus axis more towards listening position. More midrange move speakers closer to YOU. When you've got it just right go on to next.

5. At this point you should actually have as close to perfect as you can get via placement alone. We now enter the world of tweakdom. As pointed out localization is rooted in the high frequencies. The key is to first remove the noise at the same frequencies range that occurs in the room hence lowering the noise floor. next is to deal with the system induced HF distractions in the form of reflections.

6. 1st Reflections are here to stay. Accept that. There are three ways to deal with them. All are acceptable. One will work best. Especially when one of the methods is applied to the 2nd reflection point.

a. Kill it. Absorb the Sucker by turning the kinetic energy into heat

b. Diffract it. Use a plant or a stack of LPs scatter that beam into little pieces tus reducing the energy.

c. Deflect it. Send it somewhere Else. If the redirected path is more than 5.5 ft. You will know it is a reflection and not part of the original signal

7. Now you have localization down but your mids are a bit muddy and your bass is boomy. Now it appears you have long reverberation times. Drapes and soft furnishings will help here.

8. If you follow these simple steps you will get as close as possible to the maximum performance of your equipment in your environment.

9. Enjoy!

[SoLiDtUbEs]

another question...

I have good bass output in my system everywhere ....EXCEPT my listening position (4-5 feet away from all walls), I read something that the refected bass frequencies once it reaches my seat cancels out the first wave...all I need to do is Kill that reflected wave right ?...

Where should I more or less concentrate on putting pillows or whatever sound absorbing materials ? on the side walls or on the back wall ?

thanks

Qguy,

I hope by the time you read my post you have already long solved the problem on how to experience the "good bass output" from your sweet spot or as you referred to as your listening position. Do PM me on how you solved the problem your input on the matter would be most helpful.

However if you still have this problem then may we suggest you have your room treated by way of using room acoustic tools which will ensure that unwanted echo will be cancelled out and more of the direct sound from your speakers will be made prominent for your listening pleasure.

You see room acoustic treatment calls for us to address three problems namely as you may know by now from the various sound advise you have already been given Reflection/Absorption/Diffusion.

However various frequencies have to be taken into consideration by way of treatment in achievieving the desired results. Normally correct use of sound absorbing or diffusive materials or room acoustic tools can be placed right behind your speakers in order to capture the reflection or echo which is being initiated by your front wall to all corners of your listening room.



You have to also make sure that your midrange 300 to 900Khz will be properly diffused in the process in order that your lower frequencies will not overwhelm you. Thus proper density on the agent you will use to diffuse and absorb is quite critical. Guesswork really doesn't work here use the right stuff to get the desired results. We once treated a room with a thick blanket in between the speakers. Just looking at the pathetic situation tells us what kind of problems he had on his music.

Now if you need spot on impeccable imaging from your speakers then buying a more expensive highly rated one won't do you any good either ask dante one of our wiredstate members this is what he has to say:

AKo yata ang latest victim na tinutukoy mo Adoy. I have a pair of the panel diffusers/abflectors on demo. What can I say? They work and I'm sold! Wow! Adoy lent me these babies with those wood block thingies - Underground Audio, i think, and all I can say is that I am listening with pleasure to ALL my cds now, even those that I thought were "badly" recorded. Bass is more prominent and tighter, and the highs are now all there. Thanks Adoy. Lumabas ganda ng VR4 Jrs ko. And with my Unicos, my room was rocking until the wee hours of this morning. Keith, you should try these wonders. Hehehe. Can't wait to try the tube traps. Adoy, baka puede ka dumaan dito so you could suggest ways of further treating my fully non-audio friendly listening room. dante

So you see even the most expensive highly rated speakers can be quite unimpressive without the proper room treatments. We have serviced people with Cremona Auditors who were sold to our products when they heard our humble wharfedale diamond 9.1 with the use of our Room Acoustic Tools outperform their monitors.

70 percent of the over all sound you hear from your system is influenced by your ROOM. It's about time you did something about it. We would be more than happy to assist you meet your goal.


May The Light On Your Tubes Never Fade ..

-S-

[JackD201]

A gentle reminder:

The Technical Archives is a Resource Corner and is not meant to be used for commercial/promotional purposes.

Thank you.

Tech Archives Moderator

[accastil]

gguy, position your speakers in such a way that they are at least 2.5m apart and nothing is present in between them. on the outer sides, the nearest object should be at least 12 inches away.

if this doesnt work, perhaps you need to change the speakers, it may not be capable of doing what you really want after all...