MSM's new TURNTABLE - for real this time :-)

[m_shoe_maker]

steyk n tarky time na ayos na ayos sa porma shoomie

Si IHJ bahala dyan. Pero dapat CRAP or ?????? member ka daw.

[JackD201]

when I grow up, i'll go to the dark side

Grow up na There's a used VPI TNT6 up for sale, naka Triplanar arm pa

padinig muna so that i'll know if it's a worthy replacement to the Clearaudio

Triplanar VII? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Sharap nun!

[handyboy]

mag stradivari ka na MSM!!! para sama sama tayong walang papakain sa pamilya.

[m_shoe_maker]

Here goes........ This is a personal experience, a "review" if want to call it.

I have read that with VPI's new all acrylic platter, VPI's original "House Sound" (you have to own one to know it ) changed a bit. Personally, I'd say this is spot on.

Old school VPI's are known for their _______ sound ( ). This I believe was brought about by that heavy composite platter made of stainless steel, lead and acrylic. Some audiophiles loved it, some hated it. Its really a personal thing.

Personally, I loved it. I had my first TNT back in 95 or 96 thereabouts. After selling it (typical audiofool who keeps on buying and selling ), i tried out a Sota, a Rega, to name a few. Oh, by the time Pinoydiophiles / Wiredstate was formed, members remember me having a Clearaudio. Despite having a very different "House Sound", of which it was excellent on other aspects, the Clearaudio had to go in favor of a TNT, again.

Got my chop chop TNT V last year, and as expected, that VPI "House Sound" that I loved 10 years ago was back. This VPI sonic signature in my opinion was a very good match with the Clearaudio cartridges' "House Sound". For me, both had their own sonic signature which complemented, and offset each other. A match made in heaven. You guys know what I mean....... Too much of anything is not good.........

Then came my new TNT Jr. with VPI's new acrylic platter with inverted bearing. Yes, VPI "House Sound" now sound a bit different. Not night and day different like changing different cart brands, but still a tad different.....

Now, MSM is not the type of audiofool who instantly say things like; "This is the Best", "It greatly improved over my previous unit" etc. etc. whenever a new equipment is purchased. Audiofools who say these statements whenever they purchase anything is either:
1. Lucky
2. Lying
3. Don't know SH_T
4. Justifying his / her expensive purchase para di mapahiya
5. Has the typical "Love My Own" audiofool trait

So here goes.....

With the new platter, the sound is different How is it different Can MSM say some audiofool jargon to explain his findings Nope Buy your own TNT. All I will say is its different from the old skool TNT platter which old skool VPI afficionados have been accustomed to.

Which is better The old composite platter, or the new all acrylic platter Again, I say, buy your own TNT (buy an old TNT and a new TNT) and decide for yourself

To be continued....... baka maubusan gng prepaid card at mawala tong novela ko eh.

[kukang]

Maghihintay po ako para sa susunod na kabanata.............

[conspicuous]

m_shoe_maker,

thanks for the review even if i'm a professed TITS man . basically that also means i don't know CRAP some questions come to mind: aren't both clearaudio and vpi now on acrylic platters? therefore shouldn't they sound almost the same if both had the same arm (but they don't) and cartridge? however, the base/plinth for vpi is different from CA so this would also give a difference in house sound?

did the base for your old composite vpi platter change compared to the new vpi you now have? how about the arm? how significant would these be in changing the house sound (plinth, tonearm)?

wow, sorry for all the questions but it is through your sharing that analog fans like me can learn more. so keep on sharing!

[m_shoe_maker]

....cont.

Caveat:

MSM does believe that some brands / models are "superior" than others. However, MSM believes that the issue of matching is more important before one concludes that a product is great or a piece of trash. MSM believes that a product may sound superior or mediocre, depending on the item mated to it. Given this, can an audiofool conclude that a product is a piece of trash if he / she has not mated this with all products available I don't think so. Now you know how MSM feels on crazy reviews of crazy audiofools.

Now, let's go back to my new TNT..... and its new platter..... and its different sonic signature.

Let me tell you straight. I preferred the sound of my old TNT (old platter) with my Clearaudio Victory MC over my new TNT.

What MSM made an analog booboo No, my children.

Its just a matter of finding a better partner with my new TNT. Its that simple. Simple in theory, but not simple for the pocket. You see, with the new platter's slightly changed "House Sound", all I have to do is find a particular cartridge with a particular "House Sound" that I feel will complement each other. This is where knowledge of different "House Sound" of brands come into play. Also, this is where trial and error (very costly) goes into full swing. Sarap talaga mag analog.

You guys remember MSM having his old Clearaudio TT right Despite Benny Hill's influence, you guys remember MSM having a Wooden Benz on the Clearaudio table right Did this mean that my Clearaudio Victory MC was a piece of trash No senor. IMHO it just did not have a synergistic match with my Clearaudio TT. Now, when MSM got his chop-chop TNT V, the Wooden Benz was sold, and the Clearaudio Victory was used. Was the Benz the piece of trash this time No senor, again it was a matter of matching. IMHO, the Clearaudio Victory had a better match with my old TNT.


So, going back to my new TNT..... and its new platter..... and its different sonic signature. I think my Clearaudio Victory MC has to go. This in the quest of a different "House Sound". With the new sonic signature of the new platter, I already have an idea of what "House Sound" to look for on a cartridge. Problem is finding the correct cartridge.

FUN

[JackD201]

Seeing as we have almost the same table (except for the bearing and cute black boots) I'm really curiously and eagerly anticipating what your cart choice will be. Judging by your past combinations, is it fair to assume that now that the TNT jr is less "dark" you'll be looking for a Cart that is a little less "white" than the Victory?

Sorry, I'm as Bobo with carts as I am with tubes Kind of like wine, I just know what I like but can't tell you a thing about it. Sana you can give a quick run down of house sounds from dark to light to share your observations from your much much longer experience with Analog.

Ano Shooms. Sige na. Favor.

[handyboy]

Seeing as we have almost the same table (except for the bearing and cute black boots) I'm really curiously and eagerly anticipating what your cart choice will be. Judging by your past combinations, is it fair to assume that now that the TNT jr is less "dark" you'll be looking for a Cart that is a little less "white" than the Victory?

Sorry, I'm as Bobo with carts as I am with tubes Kind of like wine, I just know what I like but can't tell you a thing about it. Sana you can give a quick run down of house sounds from dark to light to share your observations from your much much longer experience with Analog.

Ano Shooms. Sige na. Favor.

ya shoomy. dont be pakipot!

[ihatejazz]

m_shoe_maker,

thanks for the review even if i'm a professed TITS man . basically that also means i don't know CRAP some questions come to mind: aren't both clearaudio and vpi now on acrylic platters? therefore shouldn't they sound almost the same if both had the same arm (but they don't) and cartridge? however, the base/plinth for vpi is different from CA so this would also give a difference in house sound?

did the base for your old composite vpi platter change compared to the new vpi you now have? how about the arm? how significant would these be in changing the house sound (plinth, tonearm)?
)

Though both Clearaudio and VPI (now) employ acrylic platters, as do most major manufacturers (La Luce, Basis...the list can go on) the approach to having similar sound may not be so. First of all, the platter design may share the same material but design and size are completely different. More importantly, the bearing design is worlds apart. The latest VPI's design and material is very spartan but very effective. As MSM explained in his posts if one looks at the older TNT5 bearing, you will say wow on how massive it is. In fact the cost of a TNT5 platter/bearing was $1,500 as compared to the latest TNT6 price at $750. Normally one would jump the gun and opt for the more expensive one and VPI could have continued with them (as they have tons of them in their warehouse) but I presume an improvement in sonics was evident thus the "downgrade" upgrade. Why did you think the wily and very experienced MSM dumped his much loved and just bought TNT5 chop chop for a "downgraded" Jr2???

As for Clearaudio, their bearing design is much more sophisticated. Putting in a ceramic bearing (a material much harder than the hardest stainless steel bearing) and the material housing it is of some kind of sophisticated polished and sintered bronze. The approach is very expensive. Their tables has one of the lowest noise floors in the business.
When being played the background is very black thus retrieval of detail is very pronounced. Some think of it as lean sounding.

I can't explain for the other manufacturers.

[m_shoe_maker]

m_shoe_maker,

thanks for the review even if i'm a professed TITS man . basically that also means i don't know CRAP some questions come to mind: aren't both clearaudio and vpi now on acrylic platters?

Yup.

therefore shouldn't they sound almost the same if both had the same arm (but they don't) and cartridge? however, the base/plinth for vpi is different from CA so this would also give a difference in house sound?

Yup, different plinth material / design can change sound. Clearaudio focuses on less mass, and no form of suspension (on my old Clearaudio Solution). VPI has always believed in massive plinths, with some form of suspension (TNT series).

did the base for your old composite vpi platter change compared to the new vpi you now have? how about the arm? how significant would these be in changing the house sound (plinth, tonearm)?

Practically the same plinth - same material and foot print / size. The only difference is that the new plinth had a bigger cut-out for the optional twin-motor / flywheel assembly (which I still do not have). Arm is the practically the same - VPI's JMW10.

[m_shoe_maker]

Judging by your past combinations, is it fair to assume that now that the TNT jr is less "dark" you'll be looking for a Cart that is a little less "white" than the Victory?

Something like that.

Sana you can give a quick run down of house sounds from dark to light to share your observations from your much much longer experience with Analog.

Naku po, patay tayo dyan. Ang dami pang MC cartridges out there that I have not have personal experienced. From here its more of research lang (kinda useless), and sugal. But from various feedback from other users, although not a 100% guarantee, you will be able to more or less determine the sound character of a particular brand, and have a visual graph from "dark to light" sounding cartridges.

[arnoldc]

Now, MSM is not the type of audiofool who instantly say things like; "This is the Best", "It greatly improved over my previous unit" etc. etc. whenever a new equipment is purchased. Audiofools who say these statements whenever they purchase anything is either:
1. Lucky
2. Lying
3. Don't know SH_T
4. Justifying his / her expensive purchase para di mapahiya
5. Has the typical "Love My Own" audiofool trait

When I got my Champion, it was not instantly what you may call a match made in heaven. I had to work on finding the synergy with the rest of my gears.

I find it interesting about your comments on the new generation TNT. My understanding and please correct me, is that they now sound close to the Clearaudio. And that is the reason why looking for a new cartridge is in order. Fritz, please tell me your usually brutally honest opinion.

[m_shoe_maker]

I find it interesting about your comments on the new generation TNT. My understanding and please correct me, is that they now sound close to the Clearaudio. And that is the reason why looking for a new cartridge is in order. Fritz, please tell me your usually brutally honest opinion.

IMHO, new VPIs still sound very different from Clearaudio. IMHO, Clearaudio still has that advantage of ........... ________ , which VPI can only dream of. On the otherhand, VPI still has that particular signature that I just adore, and I did not find in my Clearaudio rig.

With the new platter, my TNT now sounds less "old-skool VPI". As JackD pointed out, its indeed less "Dark" than your usual old skool VPI. The foundation of the VPI sound is still there, but just a tad less dark. Its still far from the Clearaudio sound.

This "dark" sounding trait is a love or hate thing. May kanya-kanyang campo to. In fact, there is a well known "underground" audiophile / reviewer (he has his own website ) who swares that VPI's new acrylic platter sucks. This fellow still prefers the heavy composite, old skool TNT platter.

I sort of agree with this fellow about the new VPI sound. What I do not agree with him is his statement that the new platter is inferior. Lighter yes, but inferior Again I can throw this question to him: "Bakit mo na sabi yan Bakit na try mo na ba lahat ng arm and cartridge combinations with the new platter " Matching lang yan, pre. Eh di hanapan niya ng cartridge na ganito o ganyan ang "House Sound".

Yes, one can do the matching thing (parang concept ng dagdag - bawas) in the entire audio chain; offset ka sa cables, bananatam mo ng ganitong speakers, - i-match mo with his amp, eh yung iba nga, binabanatan pa ng napakamahal na power cord eh. For me, I would just like to play with less variables; tunrtable, tonearm, and cart.

[JackD201]

Pakipot pa rin!

[handyboy]

Pakipot ipot! sabihin mi na yun ______________sound!

[conspicuous]

ihatejazz,

thanks for additional intelligent explanation on the differences/similarities between clearaudio and vpi . MSM's observations seem to jive with your explanation as well. maybe i can still learn CRAP

using the clearaudio twister shouldn't matter what platter you have though right? because if it is designed for use with acrylic platters then it won't help me with the aluminum platter i have on my thorens tt.

[conspicuous]

Yup, different plinth material / design can change sound. Clearaudio focuses on less mass, and no form of suspension (on my old Clearaudio Solution). VPI has always believed in massive plinths, with some form of suspension (TNT series).

MSM, on another analog thread i think the topic of springs and suspension came up. although suspension is designed to decrease external vibrations that can affect the sound doesn't it also add a touch of coloration as well? a sort of resonant frequency(ies) that contributes to the house sound?

my old thorens is on springs and i'm sure it gives it it's signature musical sound but at the expense of detail

[ihatejazz]

ihatejazz
using the clearaudio twister shouldn't matter what platter you have though right? because if it is designed for use with acrylic platters then it won't help me with the aluminum platter i have on my thorens tt.

I don't know if there is a clamp in the market designed specifically for a particular platter material. The Twister is an all-arounder. It can be used with most tables even VPI......but VPI supplies their own dedicated clamp

[m_shoe_maker]

MSM, on another analog thread i think the topic of springs and suspension came up. although suspension is designed to decrease external vibrations that can affect the sound doesn't it also add a touch of coloration as well? a sort of resonant frequency(ies) that contributes to the house sound?

Yup