Your post in the Thorens Section

by popular demand! MsM's very own forum to moderate... :-)

Moderator: m_shoe_maker

Postby audiophileman2002 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:20 am

I don't think 'killing' per se would make sound less musical. All tables develop certain resonances that may tend to color the natural reproduction of the musical event. That is why manufacturers have tried different materials for platter, for the plinth, etc. Now many use acrylic platter, acrylic plinth because the acrylic chemical composition approximates that of the vinyl. In the older tables using steel or alloy steel, damping is being resorted to. Even tonearms resonate and that is why again some people go to the extent of putting Marigo dots. What seems to me, would be the purpose of all this is not to add colorations so when listening to a musical event the background would be black. What I'm trying to say is lessen these added resonance by lowering the frequency so it is below the hearing level. Having said that the heart of the musicality depends now on the cartridge or on how the listener perceives as musical.
As I mentioned before, I've maintained basically the V15III on the TD 125B II as it was the cartridge then of that era. I have always matched vintage equipment with the proper period correct peripherals to really reproduce the musicality of that era. I'd like to listen to the music of my youth the way I heard it in my youth.
If I want to listen on a critical level on equipment that is brutal to lousy recorded, mastered or pressed LPs, then I only use LPs that are really audiophile grade. Many equipment now are brutal, garbage in garbage out; not only in tables and its ancilliaries but also in amplification stages but also even speakers.
User avatar
audiophileman2002
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am
Location: Clarksville, MD 21029

Postby audiophileman2002 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:26 am

What Mr. Shoemaker or should I revert to its germanic Schumacher is saying is correct that it colors the mid bass and all the way. . . But the audible level is really not much below say 30 Hz so in effect if the resonance frequency is lowered to the inaudible level, the background is black.
User avatar
audiophileman2002
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am
Location: Clarksville, MD 21029

Postby audiophileman2002 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:29 am

Again Mr. Shoemaker correctly pointed out likewise the springs. That is why some suspended tables now get away from spring and use sorbothane. Some even design tables without any suspension to lessen parts that could generate added resonance.
User avatar
audiophileman2002
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am
Location: Clarksville, MD 21029

Postby m_shoe_maker » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:36 am

Yup, bouncy - bouncy tables are slowly dissapearing. :D Seems to be the fad before, but manufacturers have recognized that it does more harm than good. :x Well, most hi-end turntable manufacturers anyway....
User avatar
m_shoe_maker
Idol
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:48 pm
Location: House of Nivea

Postby ichabod » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:45 am

Thanks, but there's a new "twist" now to"musicality." It's the cartridge not the table though I grant that some "resonances" low noise levels like hum are minimized to the limits that we don't hear them or it doesn't bother us. So old cartridge plus old table equals some musicality, at least in th level we knew it to be or at least the way msm has heard the old vs. the new. Matter of preference is common amongst the older and newer philes. Nothing unusual really just like the debate between tube and ss amplication maybe.

Your last paragraph seems indicative of a good number of audiophiles or music lovers even who find our modern audio going to some extreme. Could this be the reason among others why tube and some old speakers (LS 3/5A or A25s and who knows what more?) are gaining back their good reputation as musical pieces of art?

I like the way to put it about listening to old equipment to bring back lost youth. Which do you prefer in the end? Sorry that I've asked. I myself have resigned all thoughts and aspirations for a better system for the simple truth of just merely enjoying the music through what I have. And then some. Like I don't mind buying once in a while some cheap used ones in the market for the glorious things they did during their day!
ichabod
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 9:09 am

Postby ichabod » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:54 am

To add more to what I said and in reaction to msm's post about "coloring" to sound which accordingly are what old turnatables are about, ergo their inherent musicality. Does that "coloring" bother you other than its apparent (heard of) contribution to musicality?
ichabod
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 9:09 am

Postby audiophileman2002 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:06 am

No, because it was the 'colored' musicality that I heard in my youth. It is a different story if I listen on a critical level on the so called 'modern' equipment. Then in that system it is the chase of the 'uncolored' musical nirvana. Sometimes I wonder to myself. . .am I on the road to audio hell?
User avatar
audiophileman2002
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am
Location: Clarksville, MD 21029

Postby m_shoe_maker » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:08 am

Hmmmm..... the debate between Musicality vs. Accuracy. :roll: Which is better :?: It really depends on who you talk to. :) Personally, I dont care if my system is not that accurate. :roll: Most of my LPs are not audiophile grade, and would surely sound bad should I play them through a very accurate system. :P My room is also small, so I only use mini monitors. :wink: I like a degree of coloration at the bottom-end to give that perception of a weightier sound. :D For me, its really a balancing act between musicality and accuracy. :) Its a hard task, but quite fun. 8)
User avatar
m_shoe_maker
Idol
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:48 pm
Location: House of Nivea

Postby ichabod » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:26 am

I share your joy and gloom about musicality and accuracy. I even like walls that contribute somewhat to reinforce some "in the pub" like effect to jazz music, yes, classical too in a concert hall or some chamber. We ride on the same boat msm!

The funny thing only about "accuracy" for modern tts is the fact that what it's playing are analog recordings made to sound like digital CDs. I can't understand that!

Noise and all that analog replication is what makes the music musicale on our gears so why would I want something else. That's just me of course as we often say, but what if it's the "right" sound; one that you can live with for hours on end and just being plain ecstatic about it? The "that's just me" thing is quite justified then. And only because there's music!

Got to go. I'll react to your statement later audiophileman. Got the biggest laugh with what you said, last paragraph!
ichabod
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 9:09 am

Postby Amplifine » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:29 am

I don't if there's any relation :? But i once had a Golf GTI which was really fun to drive. But as I really pushed it to high performance/race specs I really lost some aspects which made the car enjoyable to own and drive. :( The mods included a 2.0 16V Twin Cam Engine transplant, Polyurethane Bushings, Neuspeed Springs, 15" rims, 50 series tires, Koni shocks, Stress Bars and underchassis reinforcement etc :twisted: The result was car that was modified beyond its value although when driven hard gives enormous amounts of feedback from the road (accurate and tight), Stunning accelaration and immediacy and even more performance than what most roads could offer.

The downside was poor airconditioning, no comfort to speak of :x Gives you a back ache after driving for more than an hour :x you could really feel and hear every imperfection on the road :x and worse is that your deaf after the whole experience :x

Sounds familiar or strange :? :D

What I really want is something that performs like a Sports sedan A la BMW M3 or C Class AMG. Not quite as exotic as a Ferrari but holds its value well, performs when it's pushed, tunable and comfortable. Is there such a beast when it comes to TT's? :?
User avatar
Amplifine
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:53 am
Location: Sta. Rosa

Postby audiophileman2002 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:52 am

If it's Thorens I'd say 124, 124 MK II, 125, 125 MKii, 126, 126 MKII etc. Garrard 301, 401.

You should come here and test drive my '99 Obsidian Black C43 AMG, 302 horses on naturally aspired engine all pure stock, never driven in rain or snow, used only on Sundays.
User avatar
audiophileman2002
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am
Location: Clarksville, MD 21029

Postby Amplifine » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:17 am

Ahhh :) So you do know what I'm talking about and might be of similar taste as well :) I love the Euros espcially the Mercs but have "Blown" (turbocharged) one such as my 87' 300E bi-turbo c/o Mosselman Turbo from the Netherlands. I've taken the turbos out a number of years ago but ran this reliably (w/ head & exh modifications) for more than 5 years. I love these cars because they're built like tanks :) Perfoms well but still comfortable (this is what I'm looking for in a TT)

I have another wicked Pocket Rocket :twisted: toy now which might be unfamilar to your shores as it is in ours: The Lancia Delta Integrale HF :twisted: Unfortunately this lacks the sensibility and workability of our German steeds. Well what can I say it's Italian :lol: :lol: Love the damn thing anyway! :)
Image
Please excuse the mess in the garage (car included) :lol:
Don't you wish we could make money doing the things we love :(

Anyway, i think you got the idea! So Thorens it is? :? Anymore analogies? :)
User avatar
Amplifine
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:53 am
Location: Sta. Rosa

Postby ichabod » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:28 am

Sur eis a good timely question not just with tts but this whole business about being crazy over audio.

That's why I like what Sam tellig wrote: "I'm not sure I see anything wrong with equipment -- speakers, amps, whatever -- that sometimes makes the music more real than it actually perhaps is."

How many audio pieces do you know that made music more extreme? I have.

Take the difference between textile dome tweeters vs. metal. Not to generalize, but I find metal to be less forgiving than textile or silken domes. How about you?

I think the tt discussions here suggest a migration of sorts from one sound to the other. The musicality vs. the accuracy thing that we hear with vintage and modern turntables. What else? Oh yes. Before I forget. Had a good laugh audiophileman when you said: "Sometimes I wonder to myself...am I on the road to audio hell." Albeit late in the day for us to ask that much dreaded question, it is the "science of improvement" and that "subliminal seduction" within us that somehow tells us to get that gear because "it sounds better." I guess we "old forgets" may have already known the answer long before but are still not immune to any audio storm!

Fire away paleeze!
ichabod
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 9:09 am

Postby audiophileman2002 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:57 am

I guess so!
User avatar
audiophileman2002
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am
Location: Clarksville, MD 21029

Postby Amplifine » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:59 am

Yep! :lol: :lol:
User avatar
Amplifine
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:53 am
Location: Sta. Rosa

Postby red76 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:11 am

Amplifine wrote:Ahhh :) So you do know what I'm talking about and might be of similar taste as well :) I love the Euros espcially the Mercs but have "Blown" (turbocharged) one such as my 87' 300E bi-turbo c/o Mosselman Turbo from the Netherlands. I've taken the turbos out a number of years ago but ran this reliably (w/ head & exh modifications) for more than 5 years. I love these cars because they're built like tanks :) Perfoms well but still comfortable (this is what I'm looking for in a TT)

I have another wicked Pocket Rocket :twisted: toy now which might be unfamilar to your shores as it is in ours: The Lancia Delta Integrale HF :twisted: Unfortunately this lacks the sensibility and workability of our German steeds. Well what can I say it's Italian :lol: :lol: Love the damn thing anyway! :)
Image
Please excuse the mess in the garage (car included) :lol:
Don't you wish we could make money doing the things we love :(

Anyway, i think you got the idea! So Thorens it is? :? Anymore analogies? :)


Hi amplfine,

Oh it is quite familiar, to me at least. I think it's you whom I saw speeding along Quezon Ave. with that beast a few years ago... The Integrale is said to be the poor man's Ferrari. It's my fave classic awd WRC car BTW. The '92 version is the most desirable... I think it's one of the first high perf cars that didn't have any turbo lag. Hirap lang dyan super sikip under the hood, and of course interior ergonomics looks/feels dated. Anyways, you are so damn lucky to have one! :) Ang lupit nyan! 8)

Back on topic. I have the TD-124... It's not as airy sounding as the latter Thorens but it sounds very good to me. It has a "solid tight-fisted tone" if you get my drift, it doesn't over-emphasize any part of the musical spectrum. Like any table it needs proper set-up (plus luck plays a big role that you get one with perfect condition moving parts- NOS or NM), but the maintenance is not as fiddly as AWD rallye cars. A mass-loaded custom plinth is a must to get the best out of this machine. BTW, I also have a TD-160Super.
User avatar
red76
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:17 am

Postby ichabod » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:34 am

Nice part about this thread is the liberty to jump from an audio topic to another -- cars, and then somehow connect the two together! These are indeed a hobbyists' haven. msm can take as much or anything under the sun! No holds bar for audio bards like us! msm? Are you still there?

Tell me if this is a fair question to ask. You're d' man who has heard it all. There's no doubt about many improvements done to turntables. But can one like you say there has really been some remarkable improvement in sound (not just accuracy) with all the wonderful things, new materials and all to turntables? To what level has all this been up to?

Let's exclude cars for the time being. Thanks.
ichabod
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 9:09 am

Postby m_shoe_maker » Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:37 pm

Still here ichabod. :) Estorbo lang talaga tong trabaho eh. :x Nakakasira sa pag audio ko. :lol:

First of, I have not heard all, I have just tasted the tip of the iceberg - wala pera eh. :cry:

I think its really more of "improved" accuracy that has happened to the analog industry for the past few years. :roll: This may be good or bad depending on who you talk to. :roll: One thing good though is with this level of accuracy, new pressings have to come up with above standard recordings. :)

As audiophileman2002 earlier mentioned, most high end turntable manufacturers have resorted to non-traditional materials and designs in constructing their products. :o All this in the pursuit of more and more accuracy. :roll: One thing good about this is that turntables have become more and more works of art, and maporma. 8) I guess this move by the manufacturers is one way to justify their high prices. :twisted: Bibili ka na lang ng something expensive, it must at least look maporma. :D

What level of improvement :?: Hard to say. :( If you have a perfectly treated room, with top notch equipment all throughout, tons of well recorded LPs then, a state of the art turntable will be a gift from the Gods. :) However, for mere mortals like me, I'd still prefer a not so accurate turntable that would give me "musicality" as well. This to suit my room, equipment and software. :)

Think of it as having an F1 car being driven in Manila roads. :P I believe that the level of performance of state of the art tables have already reached very high levels of accuracy. 8) But IMHO in order to enjoy this, the entire environment must likewise be state of the art. :wink: Now given this, can one honestly say that this is an improvement :?: :?: :?:

Audiophileman2002 is correct, this may be the ticket to audio hell. :twisted: But wait, isn't it that people who do nasty things to get a taste of their nasty pleasures are the one's who go to hell :?: :roll: Then maybe its not that bad after all. :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol:
User avatar
m_shoe_maker
Idol
 
Posts: 6703
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:48 pm
Location: House of Nivea

Postby ichabod » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:27 pm

You sounded like Dante's "Divine Comedy." Those that profit much from selling tts are consigned in hell to spin their tts forever! I say that in jest of course.

I grant that "accuracy" is an improvement. This has been quite the goal of many speaker makers too, but up to now "accuracy" is still a debated issue for speakers. In the same breath as Pilate's question: what is truth, what can be so accurate? Instrumental timber? Voice? Recordings? Is "accuracy" the same as "natural?" Which is closer between the two as we hear it, perceive the whole sound in our brain?

Might our "accuracy" define sound better than what is pleasing and natural sounding to the ears? That seems to be the logic here in defining our new turntable? That it's loaded with "accuracy," maybe "neutral" enough to bare all that's in the recording minus ambient noise, and those nasty resonances that can perhaps add a bit of "sound" of its own --spelling for us the difference between old and new turnfables.

New turntables are very imposing to look at. They'd command some respect and with it a lot of money too. A problem for most of us I reckon. Yes, an engineering marvel, a piece of art form like a Castrillo. But other than its acknowledged "porma" it must do even better than just for art's sake in what it's supposed to do. Produce vinyl analogue sounds of the highest order as faithfully or pardon me "accurately" is the operative word here, to the best of our musical satisfaction.

Nice thoughts indeed. But I still see a problem if I spend some hard earned cash ( and it ain't cheap) for some object of worship that does not totally connect both form and function. It's one thing to spend on some work of art (they say it's priceless, but one must still pay a steep price!) and quite another to experience a certain level of musicality that sums up its parts.

That accuracy without some musicality or music in it is nothing? Accuracy that lessens or dampens musicality is dead? I think you have a good argument in saying what you said: "I'd still prefer a not so accurate turntable that would give me "musicality as well."

If I may say so, I think what you're saying is "musicality" takes precedence over accuracy in your system. That a musically sounding tt is indeed better suited to your system of gears than one that simply accentuates accuracy.

I'm not inciting anything, only opinions. So are there other voices to the contrary?
ichabod
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 9:09 am

Postby audiophileman2002 » Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:47 am

ichabod wrote:Take the difference between textile dome tweeters vs. metal. Not to generalize, but I find metal to be less forgiving than textile or silken domes. How about you?

That is why I sold the Mezzo and also the traded in 920.1. Just sold the 920.1 last night after 11 days ad in audiogon.com at full listing price which is the Orion Blue Book retail value. I am tired of the metal tweet and would like to try something different. Hopefully will have time during the weekend and next week to seriously audition Spendor 1/2E, SP100, Harbeth C7ES, SHL5, Audio Note E-SPe, E-LX HE (silver voice coil).
Hope MSM wouldn't mind this reply to a previous thread.
User avatar
audiophileman2002
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:11 am
Location: Clarksville, MD 21029

PreviousNext

Return to Dr. MsM's clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron