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ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:27 am
by polaris
I want to improve the sonics of a balanced analog output of a device I have. There's no digital out unfortunately so I am captive to the internal soundcard which I feel can be improved.

I plan to invest in a good AD/DA converter. Does this make sense? It's theoretically sensible but I wonder if I'll be able to get the sonic improvement I'm looking for. Perhaps upsampling and converting to 24 bit in the digital domain will make a difference? Any experiences and thoughts?

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:56 pm
by JackD201
I'm not sure my friend. I have experience with my old pre pro, a Proceed AVP2 and my DRC box the Lyngdorf RP-1. I felt that the ADCs in the old Proceed actually degraded the sound. The Lyngdorf however sounded pretty much the same. It's a very transparent device. If you are looking to "change" the sound, I'm thinking you'll have to actually alter the signal using some sort of DSP. Otherwise, you'll just be adding whatever artifacts the AD/DA brings to the table at worst or at best, it remains transparent and thus, the same.

My .02 cents :)

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:57 am
by polaris
hey jack,

thank you for the insight. i don't like the roundabout way actually and i guess i'll just explore sound contouring (if ever)...heck, i'll just get a really good parametric eq and experiment various permutations...that should do the trick.. :)

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:10 am
by qguy
Kinda like you want to put something like an equalizer in between source and amp to fix / improve the sound. You may be better off fixing the sound from the source rather than adding something in between

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:20 am
by muypogi
polaris wrote:I want to improve the sonics of a balanced analog output of a device I have. There's no digital out unfortunately so I am captive to the internal soundcard which I feel can be improved.

I plan to invest in a good AD/DA converter. Does this make sense? It's theoretically sensible but I wonder if I'll be able to get the sonic improvement I'm looking for. Perhaps upsampling and converting to 24 bit in the digital domain will make a difference? Any experiences and thoughts?


Maybe try buying a source with a digital output, the buy an affordable DAC (in the league of the Musical Fidelity VDAC) so you'll get more options.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:29 am
by polaris
qguy wrote:Kinda like you want to put something like an equalizer in between source and amp to fix / improve the sound. You may be better off fixing the sound from the source rather than adding something in between


yup q thanks...as i've said a parametric eq should do it.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:30 am
by polaris
muypogi wrote:
polaris wrote:I want to improve the sonics of a balanced analog output of a device I have. There's no digital out unfortunately so I am captive to the internal soundcard which I feel can be improved.

I plan to invest in a good AD/DA converter. Does this make sense? It's theoretically sensible but I wonder if I'll be able to get the sonic improvement I'm looking for. Perhaps upsampling and converting to 24 bit in the digital domain will make a difference? Any experiences and thoughts?


Maybe try buying a source with a digital output, the buy an affordable DAC (in the league of the Musical Fidelity VDAC) so you'll get more options.


thanks, unfortunately my question was specific to a gear that i'd really like to work on. i'm not looking for alternatives.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:16 pm
by JackD201
Parametric EQ sounds like a plan :) Don't forget to get a parametric EQ that can toggle between -10dBV (consumer) and +4dBu (Pro). I'm assuming the piece of gear you want to try it out with is a consumer unit. I'm also assuming you'll get a pro PEQ since consumer/high end PEQs are rarer than hen's teeth.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:27 pm
by AbadSantos 7
qguy wrote:Kinda like you want to put something like an equalizer in between source and amp to fix / improve the sound. You may be better off fixing the sound from the source rather than adding something in between


How to fix the sound from the source?
Like for example, for my CD player, i just have the standard sets of button to play sound. Should I go
putting some piece of IC inside or by replacing some High Grade Capacitor?

What is the disadvantage of adding something in between?
Im planning to add an equalizer but i dont know what can be the impact. Will it be better or for worse...

I want to have more freedom to control each parameters since currently I dont have much funds to treat my room
or should I just focus on treating my room...

Appreciate your honest and more detailed advise.

Cheers.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:34 pm
by AbadSantos 7
JackD201 wrote:Parametric EQ sounds like a plan :) Don't forget to get a parametric EQ that can toggle between -10dBV (consumer) and +4dBu (Pro). I'm assuming the piece of gear you want to try it out with is a consumer unit. I'm also assuming you'll get a pro PEQ since consumer/high end PEQs are rarer than hen's teeth.


Hi Jack,

What specific brand or model you can recommend? Just on the low side price level, since for experimentation purposes only.

I will be using my Accuphase Integrated amp via the tape loop or going to the Pre --> EQ --> Main, what do you think?

Cheers.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:30 pm
by qguy
I was hinting at changing the source rather putting something in between. But a PEQ or even a regular EQ would be a good route if you really want to tailor the sound to your liking.

AbadSantos 7 wrote:
qguy wrote:Kinda like you want to put something like an equalizer in between source and amp to fix / improve the sound. You may be better off fixing the sound from the source rather than adding something in between


How to fix the sound from the source?
Like for example, for my CD player, i just have the standard sets of button to play sound. Should I go
putting some piece of IC inside or by replacing some High Grade Capacitor?

What is the disadvantage of adding something in between?
Im planning to add an equalizer but i dont know what can be the impact. Will it be better or for worse...

I want to have more freedom to control each parameters since currently I dont have much funds to treat my room
or should I just focus on treating my room...

Appreciate your honest and more detailed advise.

Cheers.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:26 am
by JackD201
AbadSantos 7 wrote:
JackD201 wrote:Parametric EQ sounds like a plan :) Don't forget to get a parametric EQ that can toggle between -10dBV (consumer) and +4dBu (Pro). I'm assuming the piece of gear you want to try it out with is a consumer unit. I'm also assuming you'll get a pro PEQ since consumer/high end PEQs are rarer than hen's teeth.


Hi Jack,

What specific brand or model you can recommend? Just on the low side price level, since for experimentation purposes only.

I will be using my Accuphase Integrated amp via the tape loop or going to the Pre --> EQ --> Main, what do you think?

Cheers.


I haven't kept up with what's happening in pro world outboard gear for about 10 years so your post made me look around my old haunts for what's out there now. I knew digital EQ was big but I had no idea what happened to analog EQ. It turns out, the budget companies are gone and only the big guns remain in this sector. The prices would make even the most die-hard hi-ender's nose bleed. Wow. Suddenly, if one were thinking of using a current production full function analog parametric (gain, Q, center with shelf and knee functions), qguy's idea of just spending on a new source makes a lot of sense. Times have changed.

The only affordable options left would be to figure out how to use a car EQ, of which there are many, or try to track down vintage and semi-vintage units. Popular vintage units like Pultechs are priced like NOS friggin' tubes and vintage microphones! Mid to high 4 figures, some at 10 figures. Some of these are mono so you'd need two AND have to house them.

What I would suggest is to go to Audiophile in Cubao to see what old stock they have around. If you do find some sanely priced units, just make sure it has a Q function. Depending on the brand, it would be labeled Q, Width or Bandwidth. Without this the PEQ is close to useless for really fine tuning.Even simple ones like vintage units from TC are still selling in the $600 to $700 range on vintageaudioking.com. Wow. I can't get over this. A Bheringer digital XO with DSP EQ can be had for half of that. I wonder what Polaris will get his hands on.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:01 am
by polaris
jack thanks for the tips...

yes i'll likely go the pro route for this as well. i've been out of touch too but i remember about 10 yrs. ago, Rane had a good analog product, still quite pricey then but nowhere near as the other exotic brands.. that rane is gone but should be available used. behringer is always out there, so i'll check.

made me think, there's likely a way to route the sound to a DAW and explore parametric eq as a plug-in, and in this area there are plenty of really good ones..but introducing a computer adds complication. :)

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:53 am
by AbadSantos 7
Hi Jack, Q,

Thanks for the response.

I would agree logically to change the source but not as this time maybe. My focus right now
in changing is the speaker....thus im saving a lot and it will take a very very long time.

Or maybe I would be wrong. Im an SET guy. Should I be demanding too much on my SS amp?

I heard a good SS + not so Good Speaker matching without any in between in a treated small room
and I find the sound was so great already. (Note: Not so good speaker means not on the level
of Mr JackD Speakers :lol: :lol: :lol: )

I dont want to invest really in treating my room so im looking for alternatives. Main reasons is, I felt
very isolated when listening inside my dedicated room. Seems like i have my own world. Plus the
fact of these rain and flood incidence that make me think to move into the 2nd floor.

Hi Polaris,

I hope you will have the success in going this pro-route and hope you dont mind sharing the result.

As of the moment, I will check Bheringer option first and what possibly i can take.

Cheers.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:03 pm
by egay
polaris wrote:I want to improve the sonics of a balanced analog output of a device I have. There's no digital out unfortunately so I am captive to the internal soundcard which I feel can be improved.

I plan to invest in a good AD/DA converter. Does this make sense? It's theoretically sensible but I wonder if I'll be able to get the sonic improvement I'm looking for. Perhaps upsampling and converting to 24 bit in the digital domain will make a difference? Any experiences and thoughts?


This might be old, but let me try.

Without a digital-out, you are simply doing a 'sort of' equalizer here when you follow your route, and I think that's a waste of money and effort. Listen to the earlier recommendations and save yourself from headaches.

But in response to your question re "a good" ADC: my experience is very limited but enough to convince me that an analog signal, even from our beloved TT, can sound GREAT using a GREAT ADC... but it ain't cheap, pare koy.

I had a chance of using a WADIA 17 and its cheaper brothers (small boxes that cost, then, like 90s exchange rates, merely 10% of the 17) and they really altered my belief in the "great analog sound" of a TT. Unfortunately, the W17 is a rare gem now.

But wait: enter the BEHOLD system that really blasphemed TT audio by directlyharnessing the signal from the cartridge via a headshell-mounted ADC. Does it sound "great?". I don't know, but I want to try. I suspect the DAC will make or break this approach. we'll see...

Bottomline: unless your ADC is "great" (very subjective, chief), better look elsewhere in improving your system.

My thoughts.

.e.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:11 pm
by edgarryan
Reviving this thread.

Curious lang ako. Would it be useless to add a DAC to a CDP without digital outs (RCA outputs only)? Parang magiging ganito ang set-up:

CDP ---> ADC ---> DAC ---> Preamp or amp

Will there be sound degradation, given na maraming dinadaanan yung signal? Kung wala naman, magkakaroon ba ng improvement yung SQ?

Sorry, di ko kasi masyadong naintindihan yung discussion above. Hehehe.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:33 am
by egay
edgarryan wrote:Reviving this thread.

Curious lang ako. Would it be useless to add a DAC to a CDP without digital outs (RCA outputs only)? Parang magiging ganito ang set-up:

CDP ---> ADC ---> DAC ---> Preamp or amp

Will there be sound degradation, given na maraming dinadaanan yung signal? Kung wala naman, magkakaroon ba ng improvement yung SQ?

Sorry, di ko kasi masyadong naintindihan yung discussion above. Hehehe.


No digital out?
then you can't use an outboard DAC.
i suppose you can have a technician harness the digital output from the inside of your beloved CDP so it can be redirected into your selected DAC; but will it be worth it?

the more expensive approach is what this thread was about: using the analog output to direct the signal into an Analog-to-Digital Converter (or ADC) and then using the ADC's output into a DAC.

there are cheap ADCs around; proshops can give one for less than 5K (i think) and then there are also competitive DACs around, too. So i guess you do have an opportunity to explore your curiosity :geek:

do let us know what comes up?

greets!

.e.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:51 am
by Gau_Ban
I don't see how using an ADC-DAC combo will improve the sound of the analog output of the CDP. IMHO, it will be a waste of money and effort.

Either you mod the CDP or buy a new one with a digital out.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:11 am
by egay
Gau_Ban wrote:I don't see how using an ADC-DAC combo will improve the sound of the analog output of the CDP. IMHO, it will be a waste of money and effort.

Either you mod the CDP or buy a new one with a digital out.


Gau_Ban, we all know this: we don't 'see', we 'listen'.
we also know that curiosity can lead to exceptional discoveries, too (take note of the "too").

yes, i will agree that this exercise can be futile but we simply could not outrightly judge until the actual listening and evaluation is done.

i supposed you have been 'curious' in your audiophile search sometime in your life? i take this thread as a possible validation of curiosity.

somehow, my experience with an ADC-to-DAC is different because it was for an ANALOG setup, i.e. a TT connected to an ADC connected to a DAC... and my bias was RESET.

so, going the ADC-to-DAC-route may be expensive and may not be worth it for a particular equipment that is being or to be upgraded, but...

Best!

.e.

Re: ANALOG OUTPUT TO AD/DA converter to improve sound

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:41 am
by qguy
It will change the sounds as the OPAMPS in the DAC will now be used instead of the OPAMP of the CD player. Now if the characteristics of OPAMP in the DAC is to the users preference then this would be seen (or heard :) ) as an improvement

Gau_Ban wrote:I don't see how using an ADC-DAC combo will improve the sound of the analog output of the CDP. IMHO, it will be a waste of money and effort.

Either you mod the CDP or buy a new one with a digital out.