digital audio inquiry

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digital audio inquiry

Postby hawk01 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:23 pm

Hi Wiredstate Folks!

As a relative newbie in the field of higher end audio, I have been mainly listening to digital (CDs and mp3s) music through my HT amp/receiver's L/R front speakers in direct/stereo mode. The AVR is an entry level unit from Onkyo with a decent inboard DAC from Burr/Brown.

In an effort to squeeze more from the digital sources, I have been checking our whether I should get a better CD player (assuming this will perform noticeably better than my multi format DVD player) or a stand alone DAC (on the premise that it will outperform the Onkyo's inboard DAC).

Many claim the better performance of a hifi quality CD player, and so as a stand alone DAC. The possible directions to take may be the hifi CD player (limitation being unable to enjoy online music streaming) or the stand alone DAC coupled with the basic multi-format DVD player, bonus of enjoying better sound quality from online music.

I would like to get some insights from the more experienced members of this community before moving forward with a decision. I am also limiting my music sources to mostly digital format since LPs can be quite expensive and delicate...
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby carbondated » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:52 pm

Welcome to WS! You don't mention what CD player you currently have -- most CD players use off-the-shelf DVD-R drives anyway unless you step into the very high end. If it has a digital out I would almost certainly go for a better DAC. :)
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digital audio inquiry

Postby muypogi » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:29 pm

I vote for better DAC. You can channel the extra funds by keeping your dvd/cd player and investing in an outboard DAC.

Or you can skip the CD player altogether and rip your CDs so you can send your files to your DAC.

I've ripped my CDs into Apple Lossless and wirelessly stream them through the DACs in my 2 systems via an Airport Express and an Apple TV.




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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby hawk01 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:57 am

Hello carbondated and muypogi!

Nice to get a warm reception and quick reply from the WS people. To answer carbondated, the CDP is a multi format Pioneer DVD player only. However, it has an optical output which I am presently using to connect with my Onkyo TX-SR313 receiver. Ergo, I am utilizing the Onkyo onboard DAC right now.

Million Dollar Question! Or quite an ignorant query on my part... Will a stand alone DAC fare better than the Onkyo's Burr/Brown? I suppose those of you in the know can attest based on experience to fill this in.

I also intend to rip all my CDs into an external hard drive sometime. However, I need to figure out why my laptop does not even play regular or burned CDs in the first place. Need help in this regard also, becoming obvious I am not tech savvy after all! Hehe

On the matter of investing on a stand alone DAC, does a regular CD player (in good working order) deliver the goods decent enough for the DAC to do its job? Or will the benefit of a better CD player help?

Side note, I saw this ad on sulit.com for a stand alone DAC from Emotiva...
http://www.olx.ph/index.php/view+classi ... tion,1-1,1

Is this good enough of a deal? Or do I have better options? Looing forward to your most valuable inputs!
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby muypogi » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:40 pm

Actually I've found DACs to be a matter of taste. May DACs na matalas yung sound, yung iba mabilog ang analog sounding.

What i've grown to prefer is the latter. That sound is mostly supplied by the old school DACs found in vintage CD players and older DACs such as my current Musical Fidelity XDAC.

If you want an organic sounding DAC at a reasonable price, check out the Rega DAC.

I've owned basically DVD players in the past and just used the digital outs to connect to an outboard DAC.


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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Gino » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:55 pm

My HP netbook, a usb dvd drive, and a JDS Labs ODAC RCA does a very good job of ripping, converting, and playback. I use Foobar player. I can't see myself going back to a dedicated cd player. Foobar can also play cds using the usb drive with equal sound quality.

I got my ODAC from www.quartzacoustics.com (Singapore.)
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby zenaudio » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:42 pm

I agree with the others that you get more bang from your buck with an outboard DAC.

In fact, I have that set-up too -- a Pioneer Blue-Ray/DVD player (which I also use for watching movies) connected to a Musical Fidelity X-DAC for music. The X-DAC costs a little above P10k, if I'm not mistaken, and it can give more expensive CD players a run for their money. :up:
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby hawk01 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:55 pm

zenaudio wrote:I agree with the others that you get more bang from your buck with an outboard DAC.

In fact, I have that set-up too -- a Pioneer Blue-Ray/DVD player (which I also use for watching movies) connected to a Musical Fidelity X-DAC for music. The X-DAC costs a little above P10k, if I'm not mistaken, and it can give more expensive CD players a run for their money. :up:


Hello muypogi, Gino, zenaudio:

From the kind of replies I am getting, it seems the stand alone DAC is winning unanimously amongst the digital audio folks here. As I have yet to personally audition (a DAC) to appreciate its audible merits, I would just like to assume the DAC is also processing inputs from a perfectly working basic multi-format CD/DVD player.

This will certainly prove less of a cost if only to invest in a highly capable DAC instead of a dedicated CDP. Now if anyone can point me in the right direction as to where I can buy one!

The link I posted above is for a slightly used Emotiva unit. Is there any vendor for the Musical Fidelity X-DAC out here??? Pricing is rather attractive as per zenaudio!
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby hawk01 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:42 pm

muypogi wrote:I vote for better DAC. You can channel the extra funds by keeping your dvd/cd player and investing in an outboard DAC.

Or you can skip the CD player altogether and rip your CDs so you can send your files to your DAC.
ave t
I've ripped my CDs into Apple Lossless and wirelessly stream them through the DACs in my 2 systems via an Airport Express and an Apple TV.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk . . .


Hello muypogi:

By some freak of a chance after having difficulty playing my audio CDs in my laptop via Windows Media Player and VLC, I clicked on the iTunes option and there it goes everything opened up and ran. I also clicked on the "Import CD" which gave the option of Apple Lossless format. It saved the file typically 25+mb in size! Significantly more than the usual 9+mb on mp3...

I may just have to devote some amount of time doing the conversion process. It seems I have been doing it as you have suggested. Now off to the market to find that DAC!
Last edited by hawk01 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Gino » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:56 pm

Foobar in Windows is better sounding than iTunes. You can also tweak its drivers when you have your dac. Choose a dac with the connectivity options to allow you to use your pc or cd/dvd player. If you decide on dedicating that dac to one particular player then on the relevant inputs need to be included.
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby hawk01 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:25 pm

Gino wrote:Foobar in Windows is better sounding than iTunes. You can also tweak its drivers when you have your dac. Choose a dac with the connectivity options to allow you to use your pc or cd/dvd player. If you decide on dedicating that dac to one particular player then on the relevant inputs need to be included.


I will certainly take note of Foobar as you suggest. I also realize the need to have a DAC that will allow me the luxury of inputting from various sources! Since I only run digital media, might as well get most out of it with the most flexible DAC...
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Gino » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:44 pm

Ok,sounds like a good plan.
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Mamimili » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:54 pm

Another vote for the DAC.
I would not call myself digital fan, but laptop>airport express>DAC is great for casual listening and really works well if there is more than one person listening.

I went with Cambridge Audio's original DACMagic with AudioQuest Forest cable, it took a few attempts to get to this pairing.....the cable really made a difference in my system.
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby hawk01 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:18 am

Mamimili wrote:Another vote for the DAC.
I would not call myself digital fan, but laptop>airport express>DAC is great for casual listening and really works well if there is more than one person listening.

I went with Cambridge Audio's original DACMagic with AudioQuest Forest cable, it took a few attempts to get to this pairing.....the cable really made a difference in my system.


Sir query from a total newbie only. What does it mean "it took a few attempts to get this pairing"?? From where I stand isn't this supposed to be a plug and play affair only with a box and cable mated together? Once up and running does its job as advertised?
Just to confirm this is the DAC MagicPlus with a headphone jack? Is the volume knob bypassed when connected to a device like laptop, CD player, etc?
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Mamimili » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:03 am

hawk01 wrote:
Mamimili wrote:Another vote for the DAC.
I would not call myself digital fan, but laptop>airport express>DAC is great for casual listening and really works well if there is more than one person listening.

I went with Cambridge Audio's original DACMagic with AudioQuest Forest cable, it took a few attempts to get to this pairing.....the cable really made a difference in my system.


Sir query from a total newbie only. What does it mean "it took a few attempts to get this pairing"?? From where I stand isn't this supposed to be a plug and play affair only with a box and cable mated together? Once up and running does its job as advertised?
Just to confirm this is the DAC MagicPlus with a headphone jack? Is the volume knob bypassed when connected to a device like laptop, CD player, etc?


Its the DACMagic, the model before the plus.
My problem was/is i compare everything i hear to vinyl and tubes, and my starter digital setup was not up to par, it was not involving, i was up and moving around within minutes, skipping from one track to another instead of letting the music flow.
I started with the usb connection and it sounded flat and compressed, everything i hated about CD's. So i tried a cheap optical cable, then borrowed a better optical and then i gave up and put the DAC back into its box and forgot about it. I cannot remember how long it was before i tried again. To cut it short i tried some higher res files and found some improvement, then tried the AQ optical cable and heard a major improvement. This is where i am today and it is "fine".
I have little interest in trying to improve what i have for digital, i would rather spend the money on vinyl or cartridges. Having said that i will listen to Schitt Audio's Modi and Loki DAC's next week, maybe they will change my mind as their prices are low.

I have yet to find any area of music reproduction that is plug and play. It is not and never will be a plug and play affair because all DAC's are different, all cables are different (which is why i have $500 interconnects in a box and use $100 DIY interconnects).
Reviews can give you a short list. Then you have to listen to as many combinations as you can with the music you want to listen to. Good luck!
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby carbondated » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:49 pm

Mamimili wrote: Having said that i will listen to Schitt Audio's Modi and Loki DAC's next week, maybe they will change my mind as their prices are low.

I have yet to find any area of music reproduction that is plug and play. It is not and never will be a plug and play affair because all DAC's are different, all cables are different (which is why i have $500 interconnects in a box and use $100 DIY interconnects).
Reviews can give you a short list. Then you have to listen to as many combinations as you can with the music you want to listen to. Good luck!


By the way, sorry for the OT, but where does one audition the Schiit products? I thought they were mail order only… ;)
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Mamimili » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:56 pm

carbondated wrote:
Mamimili wrote: Having said that i will listen to Schitt Audio's Modi and Loki DAC's next week, maybe they will change my mind as their prices are low.

I have yet to find any area of music reproduction that is plug and play. It is not and never will be a plug and play affair because all DAC's are different, all cables are different (which is why i have $500 interconnects in a box and use $100 DIY interconnects).
Reviews can give you a short list. Then you have to listen to as many combinations as you can with the music you want to listen to. Good luck!


By the way, sorry for the OT, but where does one audition the Schiit products? I thought they were mail order only… ;)


At a friends in the US, he is possibly selling them if anyone is interested, note possible.
He also has the Valhalla headphone amp so i will try that as well.

If anyone does want to order any Schitt product let me know. I could easily carry a few back to Manila (sometime mid-May)
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Gino » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:23 pm

I saw a Schiit stack (headphone amp & dac) being sold at olx.ph. A few weeks ago I also saw a stack of Schiit at pinoydvd.com. There is also a guy who takes orders for Schiit products. I saw his number at tipidpc.com.

Determine how much you want to spend on a dac then you can narrow down your choices.

Sometimes what we suggest is not always the best for you. The most expensive dac may not sound its best on average gears and speakers.
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby hearhead » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:57 pm

Mamimili wrote:Its the DACMagic, the model before the plus.
My problem was/is i compare everything i hear to vinyl and tubes, and my starter digital setup was not up to par, it was not involving, i was up and moving around within minutes, skipping from one track to another instead of letting the music flow.
I started with the usb connection and it sounded flat and compressed, everything i hated about CD's. So i tried a cheap optical cable, then borrowed a better optical and then i gave up and put the DAC back into its box and forgot about it. I cannot remember how long it was before i tried again. To cut it short i tried some higher res files and found some improvement, then tried the AQ optical cable and heard a major improvement. This is where i am today and it is "fine".
I have little interest in trying to improve what i have for digital, i would rather spend the money on vinyl or cartridges. Having said that i will listen to Schitt Audio's Modi and Loki DAC's next week, maybe they will change my mind as their prices are low.

I have yet to find any area of music reproduction that is plug and play. It is not and never will be a plug and play affair because all DAC's are different, all cables are different (which is why i have $500 interconnects in a box and use $100 DIY interconnects).
Reviews can give you a short list. Then you have to listen to as many combinations as you can with the music you want to listen to. Good luck!



Mamimili wrote:At a friends in the US, he is possibly selling them if anyone is interested, note possible.
He also has the Valhalla headphone amp so i will try that as well.

If anyone does want to order any Schitt product let me know. I could easily carry a few back to Manila (sometime mid-May)


Hmmm... I like how you're approaching your DAC selection. I'm also currently looking for a DAC source and listening to some of them (Audioquest Dragonfly and the Rega DAC are my most preferred after auditioning them). I like that you used the word "involving" in your preference standards as I feel and believe that this characteristic will define how an audio device can cut across the sensory and mental overload that we're currently being subjected to in this hyper connected world. It's hard for the layman to hear soundstaging, imaging and all that jargon when most people will listen to equipment in cramped condos where its hard to reach optimum loudness (me being one of them :D ). Vinyl playback has that involving quality and I'm curious as to how a DAC can deliver that. Though I know the two formats are incomparable, an involving and analog sounding DAC is definitely worth investigating as the convenience of digital may win you over when a toxic work schedule makes LP playback a bit cumbersome.

I'm interested on how the Schiit products will fare with your taste though, do update us if it's any upgrade over the "fine" rating you have with your current DAC and if it approaches the audiophile wordporn trifecta of tubes, analog and vinyl. :lol: . I'm kinda liking the concept of the Bifrost but I haven't heard it yet maybe you can include this in your DAC tasting session. (Pretty Please :D )

As for the TS it seems that a stand alone DAC is the unanimous vote, you'd be surprised how a DAC levels up a 320kbps mp3 file if you're used to CDs and smartphone level outputs (its an improvement but it isn't life changing though :) ) Some CDs released during the 00's sound mp3 like and a DAC can improve your listening sessions with them too.
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Re: digital audio inquiry

Postby Mamimili » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:40 pm

hearhead wrote:
Mamimili wrote:Its the DACMagic, the model before the plus.
My problem was/is i compare everything i hear to vinyl and tubes, and my starter digital setup was not up to par, it was not involving, i was up and moving around within minutes, skipping from one track to another instead of letting the music flow.
I started with the usb connection and it sounded flat and compressed, everything i hated about CD's. So i tried a cheap optical cable, then borrowed a better optical and then i gave up and put the DAC back into its box and forgot about it. I cannot remember how long it was before i tried again. To cut it short i tried some higher res files and found some improvement, then tried the AQ optical cable and heard a major improvement. This is where i am today and it is "fine".
I have little interest in trying to improve what i have for digital, i would rather spend the money on vinyl or cartridges. Having said that i will listen to Schitt Audio's Modi and Loki DAC's next week, maybe they will change my mind as their prices are low.

I have yet to find any area of music reproduction that is plug and play. It is not and never will be a plug and play affair because all DAC's are different, all cables are different (which is why i have $500 interconnects in a box and use $100 DIY interconnects).
Reviews can give you a short list. Then you have to listen to as many combinations as you can with the music you want to listen to. Good luck!



Mamimili wrote:At a friends in the US, he is possibly selling them if anyone is interested, note possible.
He also has the Valhalla headphone amp so i will try that as well.

If anyone does want to order any Schitt product let me know. I could easily carry a few back to Manila (sometime mid-May)


Hmmm... I like how you're approaching your DAC selection. I'm also currently looking for a DAC source and listening to some of them (Audioquest Dragonfly and the Rega DAC are my most preferred after auditioning them). I like that you used the word "involving" in your preference standards as I feel and believe that this characteristic will define how an audio device can cut across the sensory and mental overload that we're currently being subjected to in this hyper connected world. It's hard for the layman to hear soundstaging, imaging and all that jargon when most people will listen to equipment in cramped condos where its hard to reach optimum loudness (me being one of them :D ). Vinyl playback has that involving quality and I'm curious as to how a DAC can deliver that. Though I know the two formats are incomparable, an involving and analog sounding DAC is definitely worth investigating as the convenience of digital may win you over when a toxic work schedule makes LP playback a bit cumbersome.

I'm interested on how the Schiit products will fare with your taste though, do update us if it's any upgrade over the "fine" rating you have with your current DAC and if it approaches the audiophile wordporn trifecta of tubes, analog and vinyl. :lol: . I'm kinda liking the concept of the Bifrost but I haven't heard it yet maybe you can include this in your DAC tasting session. (Pretty Please :D )

As for the TS it seems that a stand alone DAC is the unanimous vote, you'd be surprised how a DAC levels up a 320kbps mp3 file if you're used to CDs and smartphone level outputs (its an improvement but it isn't life changing though :) ) Some CDs released during the 00's sound mp3 like and a DAC can improve your listening sessions with them too.


I am far from satisfied with the sound i have now. Fine is such a cop out!
I described the DACMagic as not involving before i got the AQ optical cable. Now the laptop / DAC / AQ Forest cable sound is better than my favourite standalone CD player (old CAL Ikon) it is "OK", but still far far away from the involving sound i would happily sit down and listen to by myself (for hours), as in vinyl.
I do not want to spend a lot on a digital system, so i am looking forward to hearing the cheapish Schitt Mondi DAC with Schitt usb cable. Sorry, my friend does not have the Bifrost.

Of course anything i say is very biased and totally unfair, keep in kind my entire digital setup cost me less than a pair of decent tubes!

For my Manila setup i do not even use a DAC, its just a laptop into a Musical Fidelity X10D. This may well be sold as as a CD tube buffer, but its doing something and that something seems to be more warmth, or less brightness, than just gain.

Which leads us back to the oft repeated question, does one need a stand alone DAC or just a better analogue output stage?
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