SS vs Tubes

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SS vs Tubes

Postby qguy » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:44 pm

Looking at the 7 super systems posted by Jadis, I noticed that all, if not all has SS power amps with tube pre.... Does this mean that SS is the best ?
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Postby jadis » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:00 pm

Hi qguy,

That is the kind of question that would make me sweat. :)

And you have to ask a passionate tube lover at that, double strike. :)

Are SS amps the best??? I feel like the lyching mob is very near
my house. And as to 'not' evade the question, imho, they are not. ( I
can feel the first tomato thrown at my window ) :)

Most probably there has been a similar thread re SS vs tube amp
somewhere here, and I would have evaded that debate thread. Anyway,
here is my thoughts as to why I think it is not.

It would be safe to say that the terms 'tunog transistor' and 'tunog
tubo' connote a certain unarguable understanding that the former means
sound quality with very extended highs ( some call it bright ), very punchy, powerful and tight bass, and a 'neutral' midrange ( neither fat
nor thin, but some actually call it thin ). Now, the latter means rolled off
highs, flabby bass which is is the opposite of tight bass, BUT a glorious,
lush, warm, full bodied midrange that users call 'ang taba tumunog na
walang ka-fatigue fatigue'.

Now, depending on which side of the fence you sit on, both terms
can be derogatory to one and high heaps of praise to the other. In the
end, the choice is mainly determined by the TYPE OF MUSIC the hobbyist
listens to a lot. A lover of sweet soft music mostly chooses tubes and
the lover of powerful, fast, and dynamic music chooses SS. As in most
cases, there will be exceptions. The second consideration is the maintenance factor. SS electronics, unlike tube gear, need no biasing,
replacement of tubes, and even better, saves you a lot of money from
being an NOS addict. Which makes me come nearer to a specfic point
in the 7 super system owner having SS amps. The owners of the IRSII
and the Gen101 used to have tube amps, both Jadis JA 500s. Both of
them experienced breakdowns of some sorts that led them to give up
the tube amps and they went the SS way mainly for the so called lower
maintenance problem. Which is not to say the SS amps will not break
down, only, the perception of the owners is that they are 'lesser prone'
to break-downs. A lot of them, imo, chose the brands of their SS amps
because they are the 'best' in its class, meaning SS, and not because
they have the best sound of all. Most owners will admit they want no more
of tube biasing and replacements. And secondly, I observed that the owners have 'big speaker systems' - multi drivers and huge woofers.
They love to play music with huge dynamic contrasts, and the SS amps
are a sound choice because they have the 'controlled' power that most
tube amps do not possess. Controlled in the sense that it provides the
tight bass I talked about, and given the fact that SS amp even doubles
its power as the impedance drops down, the users of 4 ohm speakers actually have some advantage in using SS amps, and this, I feel is
another factor why the owners chose SS amps.
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Postby qguy » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:36 pm

Jadis,

yeah the SS vs Tubes is "gasgas na Gasgas" na topic most forums...

Incidentally I have both SS and tube amps and the choice of amp depends on the music being played for the night..switching from Tube to SS is getting tiring, funny I am now looking for suitable SS amp that would replace both current SS and tube amps to make the system much simpler.....

Another thing is that the tube amp takes a good 1.5 to 2 hours to warm up..by that time..antok na ko..hahaha
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Postby qguy » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:38 pm

Forgot...

Thanks for the excellent response...
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Postby jadis » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:20 pm

you're welcome, anytime, qguy. hehe, I have heard someone with the same problem
as you re the warm up time of tubes....luckily, I don't have that dilema...I wake up at
5am each day. :lol:
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Postby arnoldc » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:05 am

qguy wrote:Another thing is that the tube amp takes a good 1.5 to 2 hours to warm up..by that time..antok na ko..hahaha
sorry to butt in, but i never found this to be an issue. all my four tube amps makes music in the next 15 minutes. but i'm a SET guy, not Pentode/PP.
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Postby jadis » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:01 am

hi arnold,

always glad to hear your views. i forgot to mention, mine is good at 30 min. all tube from
amp to line to phono stage. amps riding on sed kt88s.
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Postby arnoldc » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:07 am

that's fairly reasonable i think. i apologize for pointing a finger on pentodes/pp amps, in fact the Prima Luna Prologue 1 will play music in 15 minutes too based on my experience :)
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Postby jadis » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:12 am

and oh, in my experience, i find my system to sound better when i warm up with signal
than without. there was a time when i warm up for an hour with no signal and the sound not
not that good.
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Postby jo2 » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:58 am

jadis wrote:
and oh, in my experience, i find my system to sound better when i warm up with signal
than without. there was a time when i warm up for an hour with no signal and the sound not
not that good.



Wouldn't it decrease the "tube span" this way?

I switch-on my system for half an hour before any listening.

This way I just feel confident that the valves are running optimal before any signal is introduce.

But that's me.

It's like waking up in the morning and try to lift 25 kgs straightaway!

Need breakfast first!! Sorry OT! :wink:
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Postby qguy » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:51 am

Jadis,

Same here... I used to call my wife a good hour or two before I go home just to ask her to turn on the amp...but no effect...there should be signal going in.. in fact it warms up faster when played loud....

Arnold ... so if its a SET amp..it just takes 15 minutes and then regardless of the number of hours, the sound would be the same from the 15 minute period ? tama ba ?




jadis wrote:and oh, in my experience, i find my system to sound better when i warm up with signal
than without. there was a time when i warm up for an hour with no signal and the sound not
not that good.
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Postby arnoldc » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:57 am

qguy, in my amps at least. i don't subscribe to the long warm up, what for? the tube bias circuitry can settle down in a short time (just like the Prima Luna), and what else will change after that, nothing. it's not a car with mechanical/moving parts that needs pre-lubrication, so to speak. in fact, i only wait for 10 seconds before playing music.
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Postby qguy » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:03 am

In my setup I discovered that it takes that long when I was playing some accoustic bass and the CD was on repeat and every time a certain track would play it would shake the ceiling then I would lower the volume, next time that the same track would play I would again lower the volume for the same reasons..this continued for about three times I think ...hehehe
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Postby tony » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:08 pm

here is my humble contribution:

a dynaco st70 will dissipate over a hundred watts of heat while idle, not producing music.
a 250 watts per channel leach amp otoh will be dissipating a measly 20watts at idle.

so this is one aspect worth taking into consideration when deciding on an amp.
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Postby stealth_bogey » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:49 am

Comment ko lang base sa ni-research ko.

Marami ang nagsasabi na maganda ang tube amp..Maybe YES & Maybe NOT.

Sa amplification kase, ang purpose naman ng amplifier ay i-amplify iyong signal. Kung ano ang signal input ganoon din ang ilalabas na output nito. Linearity ika nga, same logic as you put an apple into a juice extractor of course apple juice din ang ilalabas nito at hindi grape or orange juice. Ganoon din sa audio, no way in this planet na kapag tube amp ang gamit mo and your input signal from a 5-man musical group will become a symphony orchestra paglabas sa loudspeakers.....Magic 'yon?

Sa technology matching, kung ang ima-match mo sa tube amp ay SS amp with a single power house. May mag-ko-contest na mas maganda ang tube, pero kung i-head-to-head mo ang isang tube amp versus a dual-powered transformer (transistor/SS amp)...Lalamunin ng SS iyong tube. Lalo iyong mga SS amps na multi-layered PCBs na ang gamit with oversized filter capacitors at super ring transformers.

Stick to the concept of LINEARITY, at maiintindihan natin ang principle ng amplification.
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Postby rascal101 » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:07 pm

SS vs tubes ... Dami ng threads tulad nito ah :D Sarap makinig ng tubes pero mas masarap makinig ng SS :D Hindi ako kasi kinakabahan dahil kahit anong music i-play ko pwede. Hindi kasi pare parehas ang gusto kong dinggin. Salang sa init salang sa lamig ok lang. Walang din problema sa mga bata. Mahilig kasi mga ito sa hawak hawak. :)
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Postby dogears » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:53 pm

very nice response from sir jadis :D

tubeless pa rin ako! :D
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Postby ichabod » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:38 pm

When I was on ss, I always had a problem playing some CDs due to some glare on some cds specially the ordinary ones like laserlight, naxos, so I think there's a strong argument for Jadis' point that it will all depend on the music one likes. As Duke Ellington puts it: "There are only two kinds of music: the one you like and the one who don't like." I happen to like tubes for the type of music I play! To play them on ss seem to appear it's not the kind of music I like! And by the way, mostly are jazz and classical pieces, but surprisingly some cool pop songs of yesteryears, and today all come out better in my estimation. I'm saying this not only for a few pop chart drawers, but the FM radio stations that I listen to on my sherwood tuner and bogen integrated. Voices come out like they're just in the room with you like you're in some other space in time. Pretty hair raising!

What do others think? Is it safe to say that there are more ss guys switching to tubes than tube guys switching to ss. I think wired is becoming predominantly tube inspired. I also think there are many good speakers out there now that are tube friendly that you can always match with easily better in some respects than ss amps. I think basically the hardest test for ss is how to make its sound more pleasant on the ears overall while staying accurate enough, however one might define accuracy to be.

For instance, when I had my Luxman and spendor S 3/5, not the LS 3/5A, I was always trying to find cds in my collection that would give me less of the brightness one might accept as mentioned above with ss amps. And I guess one can find enough of it perhaps? to at least make ss sound more "tube-like" as the expression goes! That seems funny!

Maybe the question that should be asked is this: Have we moved up in sound quality with ss amps or simply offered an alternative without really making "sound" as the one and only issue here against tubes with all the caring and "hassles" (as explained above) one has to give with tube amps. As with all things, the more it needs caring the more it seems one gets to ike it! I hope I'm right on this for music at the end of the day still remains the final arbiter by which audio must stand or fall!
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Postby dogears » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:54 pm

sir ichabod, you may want to try an outboard DAC - assuming that you are playing your cds straight from your cd player :D happy new year sir :)
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Postby aron » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:55 pm

very nice discussions.

How about the SS power amp + tube preamp combo? I think this will give you the power you want and "tube" sound your after. Whats your opinion on this sirs?

btw. I play usually fast music. But sometimes on lonely nights..i do play lady vocals :)
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