SS vs Tubes

super-systems, audio insights...

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Postby tony » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:22 pm

:D [/u]
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Postby JojoD » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:30 pm

SS vs Tubes...

Sa pula o sa puti?

:D
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Postby tony » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:33 pm

dogears wrote:s2kov, mas mainit talaga ang tubo kaysa ss... pero bakit walang heatsink ang tubo?!


eto tube heatsink,http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/PEARL.htm
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Postby keith » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:45 pm

dogears wrote:s2kov, mas mainit talaga ang tubo kaysa ss... pero bakit walang heatsink ang tubo?!


Mahal gumawa ng glass na may heatsink design :P
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Postby rascal101 » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:29 am

Guys,

Here is what we know so far:

1. SS - slam, fatigue
2. Tube - musical, non-fatigue

The question is why?

3. SS - characterized by capacitance. Output stage is capacitive and semiconductors are inherently capacitive too.

4. Tube - characterized by inductance. Output stage is inductive.

Equations:

5. Capacitor - characterized by I = C dV/dt (voltage is leading current)
6. Inductor - characterized by V = L dI/dt (current is leading voltage)

where,

I = current
dV/dt = differential change in voltage with respect to time
V = voltage
dI/dt = differential change in current with respect to time

Spare me the math, why?

7. Signals that we hear are characterized by:

a. Hard sounding - rapid increase of energy specially when drums are hit, doors are slammed, hard objects falling on the floors

b. Soft sounding - gentle plucking of guitars, whisper, gentle tapping

8. For capacitors, in situation (a) the current is a very high spike with amplitude approaching infinity (very high dV/dt - you see this when you short a fully charge capacitor) depending on the change or rapid increase of voltage (or signal). The energy or power then (power = voltage x current) at this instant of time becomes very high. This is what I believe is the "slam".

9. For inductors, in situation (a) the current is a slow ramp with amplitude similar approaching that of the voltage for the duration of the signal. For a square pulse voltage the current is a sawtooth. The energy or power then at this instant of time is low due to the slow ramp. This is what I believe is "musical" or "realistic".

10. The truth however, is that hard sounding and soft sounding cannot have energy that is either too high or too low (or delayed for that matter). For signals to approach what we hear, voltage and current must be in phase with similar magnitudes. In other words, neither inductive nor capacitive.

11. The challenge then is how to design an amplifier that is approximates the characteristic of a resistor but can amplify without being capacitive nor inductive.

:)
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Postby arnoldc » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:43 am

Here is what we know so far:

1. SS - slam, fatigue
2. Tube - musical, non-fatigue


no, that's not what i know.
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Postby keith » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:46 am

Here is what we know so far:

1. SS - slam, fatigue
2. Tube - musical, non-fatigue


yup, that's a pretty big generalization right there.
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Postby arnoldc » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:47 am

Hay :D
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Postby dogears » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:52 am

spare this dog the technicalities... walang tubes sa bahay pero di rin ako nangangawit sa pakikinig :D and my system is very musical to mine dogears :D

take note: madamidami na rin akong nadinig na tube amps and i'm not a 'tube-hater' ;)

prof, isa ngang 'haay' diyan :lol:

-----------------------------------------
di lang gulong ko ang tubeless :D
>8O<
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Postby Jon Agner » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:03 am

dogears wrote:spare this dog the technicalities... walang tubes sa bahay pero di rin ako nangangawit sa pakikinig :D and my system is very musical to mine dogears :D

take note: madamidami na rin akong nadinig na tube amps and i'm not a 'tube-hater' ;)

prof, isa ngang 'haay' diyan :lol:

-----------------------------------------
di lang gulong ko ang tubeless :D
>8O<


tsk tsk tsk :| :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby rascal101 » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:48 am

I don't hate tubes either. From this forum and through research I've come to understand that both technologies have flaws. As such, the focus of my discussion is to illustrate the inherent difficulties of both topologies and to get feedback from you guys what you have found out both in the listening and technical aspects. If my discussion bores you then sorry for that.
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Postby dogears » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:10 am

rascal, sorry I can't contribute to the technical aspect :D boring? nah - i plainly don't get the math/technicality :lol: but yeah - my SS is not fatiguing to me :)
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Postby keith » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:16 am

rascal101, not boring at all. I am a lover of both SS and Tubes. Each has it's disadvantages and advantages. I just believe one shouldn't generalize. If I came across a little too strong, I apologize for that. 8)
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Postby rascal101 » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:23 am

I'm performing bench testing (using an oscilloscope and a signal generator) and I'm running out of ideas how to reduce current spikes in capacitors. Am trying to make a circuit which is a cross between SS and tubes. Similar "slam" as SS and "musicality" of tubes.
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Postby arnoldc » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:41 am

as requested, Hay :D
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Postby rascal101 » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:49 am

Found out where the current spikes are coming from. :lol: From the decoupling capacitor at the load resistor. Pangit pala maglagay nung cap dun. Gumanda gain pero taas naman spike. :lol:
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Postby Jon Agner » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:53 am

Rascal, good luck ;)
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Postby tony » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:08 pm

The question is why?

3. SS - characterized by capacitance. Output stage is capacitive and semiconductors are inherently capacitive too.

4. Tube - characterized by inductance. Output stage is inductive.



wonder where you got this idea :? :? :? :shock: :shock: :shock:

what about stealth_bogeys' linearity theory, where does this fit in? :D
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Postby tony » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:14 pm

1. SS - slam, fatigue
2. Tube - musical, non-fatigue



the better terms would be imho:
1. SS amps - transparent
2. Tube amps - musical

don't forget that music reproduction is a synergy between source, amps and speakers!
the permutations are mind boggling to say the least, so how can you tell if it is the amp you are hearing and not the speaker?
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Postby tony » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:19 pm

11. The challenge then is how to design an amplifier that is approximates the characteristic of a resistor but can amplify without being capacitive nor inductive.



no, the challenge is how to design a speaker that is purely resistive! this way the job of the amp will be a zillion times easier!
succesfull music reproduction comes when the marriage between the amps and speakers are made in heaven! :D

case in point, BOSE systems sold together as amps and speakers, who can argue with success? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by tony on Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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