EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

classic analog rigs Thorens, Garrard, Lenco, EMT, etc..

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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby dimfer » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:17 am

Don't panic guys. I'm not going to start a price war on EMTs by snapping them up on ebay


oh yeah, and then six months later makikita na lang namin yung sampung piraso na nakahilera sa living room mo :lol:

gaya nung pakyawan na ginawa mo sa 301 :)
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby pigdog » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:40 am

I will be more honest on this one as i am an owner of the EMT
The EMT is a Beast of a TTABLE. it has a presence, we sort of equate it to old german cars
built to take a lot of punishments. However it is not for everyone. some people love it because they "think" that sonically its a great ttable
but do bear in Mind that this ttable was meant to be use as designed with its own matching arm and cart (the later being crucial). it is said that in order to fully
maximise the potential for this table, having the right plinth with suspension is also a requirement. Unfortunately i dont have that option as clearly i am not
in the position to spend too much money.

It can sound beautiful with the right arm and cart but choices of arms are limited. the built in 155st solid state phonos stage is not my favorite, and i have since stopped using it in favor of an Aikido phono stage. i like the fact that the ttable will lock into the correct speed really quick and that is quiet an achievement for a idler ttable, garrards cant go anywhere near that accuracy! the built in phono stage is its weak point. its second weak point is the speed adjustment which is done mechanically and not exactly the best and most efficient design.
i owned it simply because i was intrigue by it, i love the classic german engineering behind all these, and the fact that it is built like a tank makes it a formidable part of the setup. kind of like why some photographers still insists on shooting with Leica Range finders.. if one were to ask me for my choice for a better sounding ttable with arm and cart combo, i still prefered my Nordic or thorend TD124.
but that does not mean i will sell my EMT.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby m_shoe_maker » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:07 am

dimfer wrote:
Don't panic guys. I'm not going to start a price war on EMTs by snapping them up on ebay


oh yeah, and then six months later makikita na lang namin yung sampung piraso na nakahilera sa living room mo :lol:

gaya nung pakyawan na ginawa mo sa 301 :)



Yeah...... don't be a bad boy, Dante. :rofl: Akin na lang Space Deck mo..... for free. :devil:

Diba si Senor Sensible naka EMT sa HiFi Show dati? :?:
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby Squirrelnutzipper » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:20 am

It is really a shame that interesting, informative and thoughtful discussions too often take a clownish, personal and OT nature. There is a time and place for everything and such things belong in another place, for sure.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby m_shoe_maker » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:30 am

pigdog wrote:it is said that in order to fully maximise the potential for this table, having the right plinth with suspension is also a requirement. Unfortunately i dont have that option as clearly i am not in the position to spend too much money.


During its days ba, walang kasamang plinth / suspension ang EMT? DIY talaga yung mga recording studios? :?:
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby hein » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:31 am

Squirrelnutzipper wrote:It is really a shame that interesting, informative and thoughtful discussions too often take a clownish, personal and OT nature. There is a time and place for everything and such things belong in another place, for sure.


Ouch.....hahaha
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby m_shoe_maker » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:43 am

kabubi wrote:Lito "Sensible" Gelano does not have one. he has two (i think). remember the HiFi show two years back? the Sensible room had 2 EMTs on display.


So, it was indeed an EMT, any idea kung saan nakuha ni Senor Sensible toh and how much? :?:
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby m_shoe_maker » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:46 am

pigdog wrote:i like the fact that the ttable will lock into the correct speed really quick and that is quiet an achievement for a idler ttable, garrards cant go anywhere near that accuracy!


Why is this so? Ano ba motor nito, AC o DC? :?: Any unique technology why it was ahead of its time kung kumpara sa Garrard?
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby m_shoe_maker » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:49 am

stereophile wrote:Go figure... during the time the 930 was in production, a unit cost as much as a bnew VW Beetle!


What the hell?!?! :o Serioso ka, Doc? :o Matindi pala talaga toh! :o
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby dimfer » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:54 am

Squirrelnutzipper wrote:It is really a shame that interesting, informative and thoughtful discussions too often take a clownish, personal and OT nature. There is a time and place for everything and such things belong in another place, for sure.


why are you very sensitive to msm's post. last time I checked you are not a moderator in this forum, why are you acting like one.


To me, the new water cooled line and plebian Suburban Assault Vehicles are just not real Porsches


I think you are the one who posted the first OT post on this thread. why bashing the Cayenne now, is it because I drive one?

go here if you want to start Cayenne bashing.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby Squirrelnutzipper » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:56 am

m_shoe_maker wrote:
pigdog wrote:i like the fact that the ttable will lock into the correct speed really quick and that is quiet an achievement for a idler ttable, garrards cant go anywhere near that accuracy!


Why is this so? Ano ba motor nito, AC o DC? :?: Any unique technology why it was ahead of its time kung kumpara sa Garrard?

Really good question. I think that this sheds light on the answer:

The means of speed adjustment is also addressed to the manner in which the EMT 930 was intended to be used. Other well-known turntables of the day used induction motors, the speed of which depends to some extent on the torque load imposed on them. The speed of these motors can therefore be adjusted with magnetic brakes, such as the eddy-current disk used on the Garrard 301 and Thorens TD124, but the speed cannot be relied on to remain constant because induction motor speed varies with temperature and voltage. These turntables had the speed controls easily accessible on the top panel, for the user to correct the speed or set the pitch as desired.

Instead, the EMT 930 uses a frequency-synchronous motor, the speed of which depends on the frequency of the AC supply only. Since the motor speed is fixed, whatever the torque load, it is not possible make fine speed adjustment by applying a brake to the motor. So the EMT 930 uses a friction brake applied to the main turntable. An oil-soaked felt brake ring is pressed by a leaf spring to a braking surface on the bottom side of the main turntable, around the main bearing shaft. The spring pressure, and therefore the braking force, can be adjusted by means of a knurled knob under the chassis, accessible from the front. Once the speed has been set, it can be relied upon to remain constant, as verified by stroboscopic markings around the outside edge of the auxiliary turntable, illuminated below by a neon strobe lamp.

This speed adjustment system was obviously meant to make sure the records were spun at precisely the nominal speed, and not for correcting the pitch record-to-record, which again relates to the purpose the machine was meant to be put to. The operator in the radio station machine room was only concerned about spinning the records at the right speed, and therefore making sure the program timings were adhered to; making sure the record was cut at the correct speed, and therefore rendered pitch correctly on playback, was the responsibility of the cutting engineer at the record company.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby Squirrelnutzipper » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Dimfer,

Whoa! Please do not let personal animus and insecurities get out of hand. Please also reread what I wrote. There is an analogy to the technology present in old school and new turntables to that of the old school and modern Porsches. Both German products, too. I do not think it is at all OT to anyone who reads and considers the analogy. I have had a lot of experience with Porsches over many years, both on the street and on the race track and have long held that the water cooled variants, such as the 928, which I have had the distinct displeasure to work on, are not consistent with the original design concepts that made Porsche famous. Likewise, the same could be said of audio gear, as there are vintage adherents, too. I had no idea that you drove a Cayenne. Good for you, enjoy it!

I also believe that any member has standing to comment on threads, including OT and threadjacking. Only the moderators can edit the threads. I think that this is the fundamental difference. There are other parts of the forum to joke around on. However, you are entitled to your opinions, as much as anyone else is. So, just get on with it!
Last edited by Squirrelnutzipper on Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby dimfer » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:18 pm

I had no idea that you drove a Cayenne. Good for you, enjoy it!


thanks brother! I won't fit on 911, not even on a Panamera that's why I had to go with a plebian Cayenne.

I didn't know you are a Porschephile, would love to see your contribution at the Cars thread.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby raffy » Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:59 pm

Dante,

Sure on the invite! Am sorry it cant happen sooner, have been occupied with work and cycling which has left me out of audio for quite a while now. Though once I set it up properly (calling setup2 :D ) you will be the first one to know. I switched it's position thus changed the rcas and am not happy with the results.

I totally agree with Ches, not for everyone, the looks alone are "pro" and industrial in nature. Not really wife friendly but so are my other gears :) Mine came with its own plinth and stand on rollers. Looks more like a medical EMT machine :rofl: ( literally brings music to life) Though I see your idler collection is superb, all units in showroom condition, an EMT could definitely stand it's ground with your showpiece garrards and thorens. (btw i beleive that a mint one for 4k is cheap! esp with the usd now) I believe you will have fun playing with such a BIG rig. OK, sonically our tastes differ but on the playing aspect, it really is much more fun to play on the EMT. Makes you feel like a professional studio engineer / dj. I had Joel place the FR 64 and there are articles that this is the only arm they suggest you place other than the Orto / EMT arms they come with. I believe the arm / rig combo is a great match as both pieces are pretty much bomb proof in design and function. Again, phonostages are a matter of taste, I love mine as I love its detail and can use the extra tone controls on the 930! Joel also created a switch to mine so if I wanted, I could bypass the phonostage and use my preamps phonostage plus step up. Just to add another choice.

Let's also not forget that they made the legendary EMT 950 said to be king of all direct drives. Look for the BBC version and you will be astounded at what this machine can do. I was so close to acquiring a mint BBC 950 on the bay but chickened out as JUST IF it did need repair, i'd have to go to send the parts abroad so i ditched that project.

I reco you read the stuff on the net and you will know more the kind of clientele this brand seems to be associated with. Vintage collectors who systems still revolve around high performance regardless of price.

Good luck and Happy hunting.

I will advise when it is ready for a look and listen.

cheers
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby m_shoe_maker » Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:59 pm

Squirrelnutzipper wrote:
m_shoe_maker wrote:
pigdog wrote:i like the fact that the ttable will lock into the correct speed really quick and that is quiet an achievement for a idler ttable, garrards cant go anywhere near that accuracy!


Why is this so? Ano ba motor nito, AC o DC? :?: Any unique technology why it was ahead of its time kung kumpara sa Garrard?

Really good question. I think that this sheds light on the answer:

The means of speed adjustment is also addressed to the manner in which the EMT 930 was intended to be used. Other well-known turntables of the day used induction motors, the speed of which depends to some extent on the torque load imposed on them. The speed of these motors can therefore be adjusted with magnetic brakes, such as the eddy-current disk used on the Garrard 301 and Thorens TD124, but the speed cannot be relied on to remain constant because induction motor speed varies with temperature and voltage. These turntables had the speed controls easily accessible on the top panel, for the user to correct the speed or set the pitch as desired.

Instead, the EMT 930 uses a frequency-synchronous motor, the speed of which depends on the frequency of the AC supply only. Since the motor speed is fixed, whatever the torque load, it is not possible make fine speed adjustment by applying a brake to the motor. So the EMT 930 uses a friction brake applied to the main turntable. An oil-soaked felt brake ring is pressed by a leaf spring to a braking surface on the bottom side of the main turntable, around the main bearing shaft. The spring pressure, and therefore the braking force, can be adjusted by means of a knurled knob under the chassis, accessible from the front. Once the speed has been set, it can be relied upon to remain constant, as verified by stroboscopic markings around the outside edge of the auxiliary turntable, illuminated below by a neon strobe lamp.

This speed adjustment system was obviously meant to make sure the records were spun at precisely the nominal speed, and not for correcting the pitch record-to-record, which again relates to the purpose the machine was meant to be put to. The operator in the radio station machine room was only concerned about spinning the records at the right speed, and therefore making sure the program timings were adhered to; making sure the record was cut at the correct speed, and therefore rendered pitch correctly on playback, was the responsibility of the cutting engineer at the record company.


O' Dante, ayan, naka black and white na yung technical superiority of the EMT. ;) Banat na! :devil:

....and give your Space Deck to me for free. :clap:
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby pigdog » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:34 pm

hey raf
good to have you back on board, like you, i have been on the road for 6 months and barely posted here. i agree with you on the 950 that is very good Direct drive emt

if you are into collecting ttables, the EMT is a must have, and it also appreciates specially to mainland chinese, korean and Japanese market. if you can get one restored all the better. however the EMT 927 or 930st requires a bit of getting used to, if you like to constantly swap arms and carts then thats not for you, as choices are limited. the appeal for the EMT is to be able to have the pleasure of owning such a beast, just as others take a lot of pride in owning a vintage car.

a lot has been said about the plinths for EMTs. in thier heydey, they were usually mounted onto consoles with big casters. they were wheeled around as the 930st was meant to be a "portable" version as seen in some latin american and african countries. that also meant i was not meant originally for audiophile grade listening, instead it was meant to be able to survive very long term use. nowadays a suspension unit is available and is said to further improve the sonic qualities and to also help deal with teh large motor. my EMT arrived naked, i had a console made for it and noticed the sonic difference. somehow having it installed onto a console allowed for more dynamics.

anyways Dante, should you find yourself in my neck of the woods, you are most welcome to visit. my EMT is actively in used along with my Nordic and TD124
however it also has a specific duty of playing 45s as this ttable runs really well for that purposes
buying an EMT now would be a good idea if you have the Euros to spend, given the very weak euro!
there were options available including a replica of the tubed phono stage. however to use that would require one to check and see the serial numbers as EMT930s has been in action from the late 50's to 1974 substantial changes took place in the interim. i read that if you buy an EMT 930st, it would be good to get the Eyemann phono stage instead of the 155st. i cant really tell if there is a substantial improvement . when i bought my emt the 155st phono stage arrived later, the seller shipped me an Eyemann phono stage to play with. I wished i had both phono stage to make an honest comparison
raffy wrote:Dante,

Sure on the invite! Am sorry it cant happen sooner, have been occupied with work and cycling which has left me out of audio for quite a while now. Though once I set it up properly (calling setup2 :D ) you will be the first one to know. I switched it's position thus changed the rcas and am not happy with the results.

I totally agree with Ches, not for everyone, the looks alone are "pro" and industrial in nature. Not really wife friendly but so are my other gears :) Mine came with its own plinth and stand on rollers. Looks more like a medical EMT machine :rofl: ( literally brings music to life) Though I see your idler collection is superb, all units in showroom condition, an EMT could definitely stand it's ground with your showpiece garrards and thorens. (btw i beleive that a mint one for 4k is cheap! esp with the usd now) I believe you will have fun playing with such a BIG rig. OK, sonically our tastes differ but on the playing aspect, it really is much more fun to play on the EMT. Makes you feel like a professional studio engineer / dj. I had Joel place the FR 64 and there are articles that this is the only arm they suggest you place other than the Orto / EMT arms they come with. I believe the arm / rig combo is a great match as both pieces are pretty much bomb proof in design and function. Again, phonostages are a matter of taste, I love mine as I love its detail and can use the extra tone controls on the 930! Joel also created a switch to mine so if I wanted, I could bypass the phonostage and use my preamps phonostage plus step up. Just to add another choice.

Let's also not forget that they made the legendary EMT 950 said to be king of all direct drives. Look for the BBC version and you will be astounded at what this machine can do. I was so close to acquiring a mint BBC 950 on the bay but chickened out as JUST IF it did need repair, i'd have to go to send the parts abroad so i ditched that project.

I reco you read the stuff on the net and you will know more the kind of clientele this brand seems to be associated with. Vintage collectors who systems still revolve around high performance regardless of price.

Good luck and Happy hunting.

I will advise when it is ready for a look and listen.

cheers
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby jadis » Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:07 pm

m_shoe_maker wrote:Diba si Senor Sensible naka EMT sa HiFi Show dati? :?:


Yup, nakasama ko siya sa exhibit room niya. EMT TT and tonearm + Koetsu Black. :) November 2007.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby raffy » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:22 pm

Philip,

Am not sure how you guys managed to "jimmy" the Koetsu black in the proprietary wand of orto / emt but i remember that during that hifi show the combination of the Koetsu and the EMT was addicting. I kept on going back to the ARC room for more.

regards

raffy

Great pic and tribute to the legendary senor sensible!
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby jadis » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:40 pm

raffy wrote:Philip,

Am not sure how you guys managed to "jimmy" the Koetsu black in the proprietary wand of orto / emt but i remember that during that hifi show the combination of the Koetsu and the EMT was addicting. I kept on going back to the ARC room for more.

regards

raffy

Great pic and tribute to the legendary senor sensible!


Hi Raffy,

Great to see you back here. Man, I envy your 'fitness' from your cycling and marathon runs. :)

Good you point that out. There was an initial difficulty in mounting the Koetsu, which is in a universal headshell, into the Ortofon arm wand. It had to do with the 4 pin configuration of the Ortofon being in a 'diamond' configuration as opposed to the standard headshell four pin 'square' pattern. Senor's main tech man, Mang Ding, did SOMETHING to it, I forgot how really :lol: , but he made it work and snapped in the headshell to the arm, good enough to make the combo sing. And I'm glad you liked the sound. I had not been exposed much to vintage TT at that time, and boy, was I impressed at the resulting musicality.
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Re: EMT Question: Why Are They So Expensive?

Postby egay » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:55 pm

when i saw close-up the EMT, i said, "Yuk, what an ugly 'table; i wonder who would want one" ... i now have the answer, and my understanding made me look at the 'table in a different light, now admiring the engineering that went with it - what a mechanical tool this is :rock:

then again, i wouldn't want to own one because i see that an owner has to have time to do maintenance works once it breaks down (as is true with other mechanical TTs you guys are on to - hats-off to you gents!)...

dana, would this be real with the porches you mentioned? i mean, yeah, good engineering but a pain to maintain? (i.e. in terms of the materials and effort, not on the costs)

.e.
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