Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

classic analog rigs Thorens, Garrard, Lenco, EMT, etc..

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Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:45 am

idler vs. belt

They won't allow a picture link..... :devil:
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby arnoldc » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:50 am

I thought may bago... this is a 2007 post pa. :)
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:53 am

arnoldc wrote:I thought may bago... this is a 2007 post pa. :)


Ganun ba? Sorry the morning coffee didn't kick in....first time I saw it and didn't notice the date :lol: Saw your post too :rock:
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby kabubi » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:02 am

je,

waht are your thoughts re a (Pierre) Clement rutntable?

chenks!




k
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:45 pm

kabubi wrote:je,
waht are your thoughts re a (Pierre) Clement rutntable
chenks!
k


Can't say, I never heard one...sorry.

*VERY IMPORTANT* AFAIK these were never imported to the USA. Make sure the pulley can be trimmed/changed (ala 301/401/TD124) for use in a 60hz environment unlike an EMT/Lenco.

je
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby JackD201 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:37 pm

The guy nailed it when he said it was all about one's personal priorities. I have the Raven so I guess you guys know what my priorities are :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:48 pm

JackD201 wrote:The guy nailed it when he said it was all about one's personal priorities. I have the Raven so I guess you guys know what my priorities are :lol: :lol: :lol:


That's what I liked about his concluding remarks :rock:
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby Gaucho » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:11 pm

je,

Thanks for sharing. So i guess I don't know what my priorities are as I own both (an idler and a belt-driven table, just like many fellow wiredsatesmen I know) :lol: . I tend to agree with the observations though that 's why maybe consciously or unconsciuously, I am still keeping and happy with both.
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby joe3rp » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:56 pm

It seem this is good controlled listening...except for table - same arm/cart/electronics

What I like ....

Front end - IDLER drive ;)
Tonearm - FR64 :)

SPEAKERS - JBL HORNs/Tweeter :)

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:31 pm

Gaucho wrote:je,
Thanks for sharing. So i guess I don't know what my priorities are as I own both (an idler and a belt-driven table, just like many fellow wiredsatesmen I know) :lol: . I tend to agree with the observations though that 's why maybe consciously or unconsciuously, I am still keeping and happy with both.


Perhaps you spoke too soon? ;) Wait until your horn speakers are done :D :D

joe3rp wrote:this is good controlled listening...except for table - same arm/cart/electronics

What I like ....

Front end - IDLER drive
Tonearm - FR64

Agreed :rock:

joe3rp wrote: SPEAKERS - JBL HORNs/Tweeter

...not quite the vintage I like. JMO, YMMV..... ;)
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby Jon Agner » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:24 pm

setup1 wrote:Can't say, I never heard one...sorry.

*VERY IMPORTANT* AFAIK these were never imported to the USA. Make sure the pulley can be trimmed/changed (ala 301/401/TD124) for use in a 60hz environment unlike an EMT/Lenco.

je


je,

I couldn't recall if this was discussed in VE or in another site, but an AC motor configured for a 50hz environment may also have a problem running properly at a 60 hz environment, even if the pulleys are changed, as the motor itself will be running faster rate than it is designed for (which can result to a burnt/stuck up motor). The solution stated, in addition to changing the pulley to 60 hz, is to adjust/lower the motor's operating voltage.

I'll try to find where that discussion was. :)
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:20 pm

Jon Agner wrote:je,I couldn't recall if this was discussed in VE or in another site, but an AC motor configured for a 50hz environment may also have a problem running properly at a 60 hz environment, even if the pulleys are changed, as the motor itself will be running faster rate than it is designed for (which can result to a burnt/stuck up motor). The solution stated, in addition to changing the pulley to 60 hz, is to adjust/lower the motor's operating voltage.
I'll try to find where that discussion was. :)


Maybe you are right......FWIW, I added the caveat in a later edit for kabubi to think about if he is contemplating a purchase. As stated I don't know the Pierre Clement. Maybe it belongs to the category you are talking about?

I listed models I have hands on experience using/servicing (except the EMT, but trust Joel on this since he has serviced both 50hz and 60hz models of the 930) equipped with motors that can operate at both 50hz and 60hz with a pulley/trim change. I also noted the Lenco/EMT as exceptions because of the permanently attached pulley to the motor and will add Rek O Kut. ROKs are not much of a problem with a step down transformer because most of them were built/sold to a 60hz market......

Find and post the link that lists idler turntable models with motors that need to operate on a fixed frequency. This would be helpful and appreciated by idler enthusiasts. :)
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby rtsyrtsy » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:40 pm

Anyone here understands what "plasticity" means?
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:49 pm

rtsyrtsy wrote:Anyone here understands what "plasticity" means?


In that context I also wonder...... ;) the writer is continental European, FWIW. :)
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby stereophile » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:58 pm

setup1 wrote:... I also noted the Lenco/EMT as exceptions because of the permanently attached pulley to the motor...


JE- I had a chance to service the motor of my 930. The pulley IS part of the motor shaft- one piece! I am thankful its a 60hz motor! :clap:
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby audiophileman2002 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:04 pm

setup1 wrote:
Jon Agner wrote:je,I couldn't recall if this was discussed in VE or in another site, but an AC motor configured for a 50hz environment may also have a problem running properly at a 60 hz environment, even if the pulleys are changed, as the motor itself will be running faster rate than it is designed for (which can result to a burnt/stuck up motor). The solution stated, in addition to changing the pulley to 60 hz, is to adjust/lower the motor's operating voltage.
I'll try to find where that discussion was. :)


Maybe you are right......FWIW, I added the caveat in a later edit for kabubi to think about if he is contemplating a purchase. As stated I don't know the Pierre Clement. Maybe it belongs to the category you are talking about?

I listed models I have hands on experience using/servicing (except the EMT, but trust Joel on this since he has serviced both 50hz and 60hz models of the 930) equipped with motors that can operate at both 50hz and 60hz with a pulley/trim change. I also noted the Lenco/EMT as exceptions because of the permanently attached pulley to the motor and will add Rek O Kut. ROKs are not much of a problem with a step down transformer because most of them were built/sold to a 60hz market......

Find and post the link that lists idler turntable models with motors that need to operate on a fixed frequency. This would be helpful and appreciated by idler enthusiasts. :)


Technically, there should not be any problem 'running' a 50 hz turntable motor in a 60 Hz line. The speed (rpm) of the motor would increase by 20%. In bigger motors, even 3 phase motors the 50 Hz motor should be operated at 20% higher voltage. For example, a German motor rated at 380V, 50 Hz. can be used in the Philippines but must be operated at 456 volts, 60 Hz. This is no problem as there is a supply of 460V, 60 Hz. The rpm of the motor is increased by 20% and so also with the kw rating of the motor.
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup1 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:15 pm

stereophile wrote:
setup1 wrote:... I also noted the Lenco/EMT as exceptions because of the permanently attached pulley to the motor...


JE- I had a chance to service the motor of my 930. The pulley IS part of the motor shaft- one piece! I am thankful its a 60hz motor! :clap:


Thanks for the info Doc Lito! So does this mean the EMT motor belong to the category of those that operate on a fixed frequency?

AFAIK and this is confirmed at Lenco Lovers by European enthusiasts, Lenco supplied the same motor for the US, European and Asian market. The size/taper of the conical pulley which is an integral part of the armature/rotor determines whether it will operate properly in a 50hz or 60 hz environment.
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Re: Interesting idler vs. belt comparison @ VE!

Postby setup2 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:59 am

Going with the EMT930... indeed the pulley is integral to the shaft and thus the motor... I'm not sure if the 50hz motor and the 60hz motor are the same or different as they looked the same as to size except for the integrated pulley and shaft... but I'm sure they have different capacitors, which EMT uses, as according to them, these are 3-phase motors, the smaller caps are to quiet down the motor... Was able to compare when I worked on a pair of EMTs, one 50hz and one 60hz... It was decided just to swap the motors since the 50hz was in better condition as for the finish... internally, both unit worked fine... I think the 60hz, now with the 50hz motor, is now in a country that uses 50hz... if confusing... sorry, a bit drunk and just got home... :$ :$ :$
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