TD124 .. with Mushroom or No mushroom ??

classic analog rigs Thorens, Garrard, Lenco, EMT, etc..

Moderators: setup1, setup2

TD124 .. with Mushroom or No mushroom ??

Postby jomar » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:44 am

My TD124 does not have the rubbber mushroom so i bought a set of replacement mushrooms at ebay. When i installed it , no matter what adjustments i make, the background sound is noisy... some sort of vibrations from the TT is more picked up by the cartridge rather than being damped. I get a quiter background ( as in dead quite ) when the plinth is resting directly to the plinth. My plinth is a 55lbs solid wood. I've just serviced the 124 spindle with new bearing and oil last december.

Appreciate any thoughts from TD124 users here :wink:

Image
User avatar
jomar
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:36 am
Location: The FINE country

Postby pigdog » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:48 am

i dont use a mushroom on my td 124 and mine is running really quiet. in fact i even took off the sorbetene under the level knowbs and locked my thorens onto the turntable, to keep it level, i place coins under the heavy chassis. and i am currently running it with a linear tracking arm without any issues, in fact, i find it more dynamic, considering it is an inexpensive MM cart
User avatar
pigdog
Master
Master
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:39 pm
Location: munchkin land

Postby Mamimili » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:53 am

No mushrooms on mine / no noise :D (Mine stands on a sand filled metal rack).
I have read several threads where people have removed the mushrooms and are very pleased they did.

I think the idea of decoupling the armboard from the frame is the next "giant leap" (see a recent Rene thread).
I am still trying to summon the courage to cut my complete armboard frame off and have a truly isolated tonearm.
User avatar
Mamimili
Master
Master
 
Posts: 4310
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: Subang

Postby pigdog » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:55 am

actually Paul is right, keeping your turntable onto a solid and surface helps a
lot, consider joey3rps plinths for the thorens which really improves the sonic performance of the thorens.
User avatar
pigdog
Master
Master
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:39 pm
Location: munchkin land

Postby jomar » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:23 pm

Pigdog,
Thanks for the infos .. will look for a long threaded bar and lock/screw the 124 solidly to the plinth.

Paul,
Cut the armboard frame ?? .. this is a major surgery and i think it would be better getting a 12inch arm so that it rest on the plinth not on the armboard.
User avatar
jomar
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:36 am
Location: The FINE country

Postby amandarae » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:12 pm

Hello Jomar,

Do not want to be the "oddball" here but my experience is different. I found the TD124 quieter on a hollow or solid plinth with the mushrooms attach.

On my TD124 MKII, pic shown below, I tried bolting it to the very heavy plinth and to me, I think the sound lost the "sparkle" somehow. bass was very good though but with the mushrooms, i compensate the other positive by just changing the VTA a bit. (i.e. tail a little down on the cart).

Image

After a lot of experimentation, I decided to use the table as it is intended by the designer. That is, decoupled from the plinth (with mushrooms) and with the motor decoupled from the chassis (motor grommets installed). I have no problem as to the arm decoupling since I am using a 3012.

On the other hand, my TD124 MKI uses a hollow plinth and a shorter arm

Image

I also tried coupling the chassis to the plinth but prefer the "conventional" method. As to the arm being supported by the arm board directly coupled to the chassis, I use rubber washers to isolate the board to the chassis vibration plus the rubber sheet, assuming SME 3009 is the arm as I have, along the mounting plate of the arm is also installed.


So there, my experiences only of course.


regards,

Abe
User avatar
amandarae
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29 pm
Location: Diamond Bar, CA

Postby Mamimili » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:02 pm

Hello Abe

I wonder if your flexy style rack is draining vibrations in a different way to my solid metal rack?

I have not tried mushrooms, but have tried some sorbathane which i did not like, the arm vibrated, sound was very distorted.
But, i have noticed that if my antiskate weight hanger moves a fraction i get tonearm vibration......too lazy to experiment further right now :lol:

Cheers :D
User avatar
Mamimili
Master
Master
 
Posts: 4310
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: Subang

Postby jomar » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:18 pm

Abe,

Thanks for sharing your experience .Ofcourse i'm still persistent to use the mushroom since i already bought it :oops: :oops: , but i just couldn't make it work. I just could not understand why the mushroom doesn't work as it should :evil: . As for the sound of with or without mushroom, i couldn't stand with the mushroom as there are background noise. Will do some other experiments to make it work. hmmm, ano pa kaya puweding gawin ?


regards,
jomar
User avatar
jomar
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:36 am
Location: The FINE country

Postby amandarae » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:05 am

Mamimili wrote:Hello Abe

I wonder if your flexy style rack is draining vibrations in a different way to my solid metal rack?
I have not tried mushrooms, but have tried some sorbathane which i did not like, the arm vibrated, sound was very distorted.
But, i have noticed that if my antiskate weight hanger moves a fraction i get tonearm vibration......too lazy to experiment further right now :lol:

Cheers :D


Hello Paul,

Could be! As to the anti-skate hanger, the way my SME manual described how it should be installed goes something like this:

Thread the loop of the bias weight over the bias lever and drop the nylon into the bias guide so that the weight hangs freely. Position the loop into the grove corresponding to the tracking force being used. Each represents 1/2 gram and remains so with either the whole or half rider weight. use the first one closest to the arm pivot fro 1/2 gram, the third for 1 1/2 grams etc. For 1/4 grams, use the next higer setting. Adjust the position of the bias guide so that, with the stylus on the outer groove of a 12" record the thread is at right angle to the bias lever.

Assuming that this is what you did, make sure that when you start balancing the arm to start with, the Longitudinal and Lateral balance are correctly so and gives you 1/2 gram per turn of the rider weight. I think this procedure is critical in order for a correct installation of where the bias guide should be positioned.

regards,

Abe
User avatar
amandarae
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29 pm
Location: Diamond Bar, CA

Postby amandarae » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:11 am

jomar wrote:Abe,

Thanks for sharing your experience .Ofcourse i'm still persistent to use the mushroom since i already bought it :oops: :oops: , but i just couldn't make it work. I just could not understand why the mushroom doesn't work as it should :evil: . As for the sound of with or without mushroom, i couldn't stand with the mushroom as there are background noise. Will do some other experiments to make it work. hmmm, ano pa kaya puweding gawin ?


regards,
jomar


Hello Jomar,

Do you have a picture handy on how you installed the mushrooms? Did you use the original screw rods( if not, the size is M5 and can be easily bought from any hardware store)? The TD124 manual, if you have one, section of "Shock Mounting" mentions the use of the four rubber dampers.

regards,

Abe
User avatar
amandarae
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29 pm
Location: Diamond Bar, CA

Postby jomar » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:28 am

amandarae wrote:Hello Jomar,

Do you have a picture handy on how you installed the mushrooms? Did you use the original screw rods( if not, the size is M5 and can be easily bought from any hardware store)? The TD124 manual, if you have one, section of "Shock Mounting" mentions the use of the four rubber dampers.

regards,

Abe


Abe,

The M5 threaded rod is about 3.5inch long ( not sure if still original ) and the hole in the plinth is 15mm as per template guide ( drilled till bottom of plinth ). Will try shorter screw length ( 1.5 inch ), maybe it is also vibrating due to its length.

Below are the pictures:
ImageImage

The TT base clearance from the plinth is around 6.5mm with level disc fully locked/screwed.
Image

Will check on the manual about shock mounting.

regards,
jomar
User avatar
jomar
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:36 am
Location: The FINE country

Postby Mamimili » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:50 pm

amandarae wrote:
Mamimili wrote:Hello Abe

I wonder if your flexy style rack is draining vibrations in a different way to my solid metal rack?
I have not tried mushrooms, but have tried some sorbathane which i did not like, the arm vibrated, sound was very distorted.
But, i have noticed that if my antiskate weight hanger moves a fraction i get tonearm vibration......too lazy to experiment further right now :lol:

Cheers :D


Hello Paul,

Could be! As to the anti-skate hanger, the way my SME manual described how it should be installed goes something like this:

Thread the loop of the bias weight over the bias lever and drop the nylon into the bias guide so that the weight hangs freely. Position the loop into the grove corresponding to the tracking force being used. Each represents 1/2 gram and remains so with either the whole or half rider weight. use the first one closest to the arm pivot fro 1/2 gram, the third for 1 1/2 grams etc. For 1/4 grams, use the next higer setting. Adjust the position of the bias guide so that, with the stylus on the outer groove of a 12" record the thread is at right angle to the bias lever.

Assuming that this is what you did, make sure that when you start balancing the arm to start with, the Longitudinal and Lateral balance are correctly so and gives you 1/2 gram per turn of the rider weight. I think this procedure is critical in order for a correct installation of where the bias guide should be positioned.

regards,

Abe


Cheers Abe, the text you highlighted was my problem!
:D :D :D :D
I will download the manual :oops:
User avatar
Mamimili
Master
Master
 
Posts: 4310
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: Subang

Postby Mamimili » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:59 pm

jomar wrote:Pigdog,
Thanks for the infos .. will look for a long threaded bar and lock/screw the 124 solidly to the plinth.

Paul,
Cut the armboard frame ?? .. this is a major surgery and i think it would be better getting a 12inch arm so that it rest on the plinth not on the armboard.


Hello Jomar
Yes, major surgery indeed :twisted:
I think it would help, but being brave (or dumb) enough to put blade to frame has not happened yet. I look at it and the little voice says Just Do IT :twisted: :twisted: so far i have resisted but one of these days.......

You are right, a 12" makes more sense, but they are so hard to find :(
User avatar
Mamimili
Master
Master
 
Posts: 4310
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: Subang

Postby Raf » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:13 pm

There are so many configurations and possibilities that surround the question of how best to mount a tonearm on a td 124 for less hum.

I've had mine mounted 2 different ways, with two different tonearms and have used two different materials for an armboard and yet I do not feel confident enough to make a strong recommendation but I will share my observations instead.

1. I am experiencing less motor hum on my 3012 now that I have it mounted on brass instead of acrylic.

2. On my double tonearm 124 setup, one tonearm is mounted closer to the motor than the other. My theory is that the further away from the motor, the less hum I am getting on my tonearm, despite both tonearms being mounted on brass.

3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

Hope this helps!
User avatar
Raf
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:41 pm
Location: If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you

Postby amandarae » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:40 pm

jomar wrote:
amandarae wrote:Hello Jomar,

Do you have a picture handy on how you installed the mushrooms? Did you use the original screw rods( if not, the size is M5 and can be easily bought from any hardware store)? The TD124 manual, if you have one, section of "Shock Mounting" mentions the use of the four rubber dampers.

regards,

Abe


Abe,

The M5 threaded rod is about 3.5inch long ( not sure if still original ) and the hole in the plinth is 15mm as per template guide ( drilled till bottom of plinth ). Will try shorter screw length ( 1.5 inch ), maybe it is also vibrating due to its length.

Below are the pictures:
ImageImage

The TT base clearance from the plinth is around 6.5mm with level disc fully locked/screwed.
Image

Will check on the manual about shock mounting.

regards,
jomar


Hey Jhun,

Weird, I do not see anything wrong with your set up. :?: :?:

Yes, the M5 rod has the correct length. Is your buble level working on the table? Can you level it properly and if so, can you doublecheck if the platter is level when the clutch is dis-engaged? I'm trying to find out if the chassis is not straight with regards to the platter and bearing. This would explain why coupling it to the heavy mass of the plinth made it quieter. It is unlikely but the thing that confuses me is that why would it be quieter coupled than de-coupled to the plinth if the suspension, motor and mushrooms for the chassis, are installed.

regards,

Abe
User avatar
amandarae
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29 pm
Location: Diamond Bar, CA

Postby amandarae » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:41 pm

Mamimili wrote:
amandarae wrote:
Mamimili wrote:Hello Abe

I wonder if your flexy style rack is draining vibrations in a different way to my solid metal rack?
I have not tried mushrooms, but have tried some sorbathane which i did not like, the arm vibrated, sound was very distorted.
But, i have noticed that if my antiskate weight hanger moves a fraction i get tonearm vibration......too lazy to experiment further right now :lol:

Cheers :D


Hello Paul,

Could be! As to the anti-skate hanger, the way my SME manual described how it should be installed goes something like this:

Thread the loop of the bias weight over the bias lever and drop the nylon into the bias guide so that the weight hangs freely. Position the loop into the grove corresponding to the tracking force being used. Each represents 1/2 gram and remains so with either the whole or half rider weight. use the first one closest to the arm pivot fro 1/2 gram, the third for 1 1/2 grams etc. For 1/4 grams, use the next higer setting. Adjust the position of the bias guide so that, with the stylus on the outer groove of a 12" record the thread is at right angle to the bias lever.

Assuming that this is what you did, make sure that when you start balancing the arm to start with, the Longitudinal and Lateral balance are correctly so and gives you 1/2 gram per turn of the rider weight. I think this procedure is critical in order for a correct installation of where the bias guide should be positioned.

regards,

Abe


Cheers Abe, the text you highlighted was my problem!
:D :D :D :D
I will download the manual :oops:


Hi Paul,

Great!!! Enjoy.....

regards,

Abe
User avatar
amandarae
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29 pm
Location: Diamond Bar, CA

Postby amandarae » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:56 pm

Raf wrote:There are so many configurations and possibilities that surround the question of how best to mount a tonearm on a td 124 for less hum.

I've had mine mounted 2 different ways, with two different tonearms and have used two different materials for an armboard and yet I do not feel confident enough to make a strong recommendation but I will share my observations instead.

1. I am experiencing less motor hum on my 3012 now that I have it mounted on brass instead of acrylic.

2. On my double tonearm 124 setup, one tonearm is mounted closer to the motor than the other. My theory is that the further away from the motor, the less hum I am getting on my tonearm, despite both tonearms being mounted on brass.
3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

Hope this helps!



Hello Raf,

Bingo! That is why I never pursue installing two arms on my TT ever. In my case, it is this plus the close proximity of the arm to the motor magnetic field. My opinions only btw.

3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

What happens to the clutch feature when changing records?

I can see your point, especially if the second platter is warp but let me express my opinion here. The TD 124 was designed, and designed properly, to have the top platter as part of the system. It is isolated from the main platter by the rubber dots along the perimeter of the main platter. This arrangement, assuming the tt is working properly (bearing, motor platter, etc.), is tried and true and survive the test of time. The TD 124 is one of the best engineered table you will ever see. If the vibrations were decreased as a result of removing the top platter and installing a mat, any kind of mat, the vibrations were not eliminated, it was masked.

Having said that, I will look in a different avenue to figure out why vibrations are present instead of eliminating one of the best feature of the TD 124. Assuming that the platter is not warp.

So there, I am just expressing my opinions. :D Most of the times I am wrong but you be the judge. Kindly excuse the rant of course!

regards,

Abe
User avatar
amandarae
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:29 pm
Location: Diamond Bar, CA

Postby Raf » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:05 pm

amandarae wrote:
Raf wrote:There are so many configurations and possibilities that surround the question of how best to mount a tonearm on a td 124 for less hum.

I've had mine mounted 2 different ways, with two different tonearms and have used two different materials for an armboard and yet I do not feel confident enough to make a strong recommendation but I will share my observations instead.

1. I am experiencing less motor hum on my 3012 now that I have it mounted on brass instead of acrylic.

2. On my double tonearm 124 setup, one tonearm is mounted closer to the motor than the other. My theory is that the further away from the motor, the less hum I am getting on my tonearm, despite both tonearms being mounted on brass.
3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

Hope this helps!



Hello Raf,

Bingo! That is why I never pursue installing two arms on my TT ever. In my case, it is this plus the close proximity of the arm to the motor magnetic field. My opinions only btw.

3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

What happens to the clutch feature when changing records?

I can see your point, especially if the second platter is warp but let me express my opinion here. The TD 124 was designed, and designed properly, to have the top platter as part of the system. It is isolated from the main platter by the rubber dots along the perimeter of the main platter. This arrangement, assuming the tt is working properly (bearing, motor platter, etc.), is tried and true and survive the test of time. The TD 124 is one of the best engineered table you will ever see. If the vibrations were decreased as a result of removing the top platter and installing a mat, any kind of mat, the vibrations were not eliminated, it was masked.

Having said that, I will look in a different avenue to figure out why vibrations are present instead of eliminating one of the best feature of the TD 124. Assuming that the platter is not warp.

So there, I am just expressing my opinions. :D Most of the times I am wrong but you be the judge. Kindly excuse the rant of course!

regards,

Abe


Not at all, Sir! Thank you for helping me along my learning curve!!! :) :) BTW, I'm not one of those who removed the top platter but your suppositions seem to be spot on and correct. :) :)
User avatar
Raf
Fanatic
Fanatic
 
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:41 pm
Location: If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you

Postby jomar » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:46 pm

Mamimili wrote:Hello Jomar
Yes, major surgery indeed :twisted:
I think it would help, but being brave (or dumb) enough to put blade to frame has not happened yet. I look at it and the little voice says Just Do IT :twisted: :twisted: so far i have resisted but one of these days.......

You are right, a 12" makes more sense, but they are so hard to find :(


Paul,
You can do it .... JUST DO IT , let us know the outcome :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Kidding aside, 12" are not just hard to find .. they are also almost the same price or sometimes more expensive than the TD124 :lol: :lol:

cheers,
jomar
User avatar
jomar
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:36 am
Location: The FINE country

Postby jomar » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:54 pm

amandarae wrote:Hey Jhun,

Weird, I do not see anything wrong with your set up. :?: :?:

Yes, the M5 rod has the correct length. Is your buble level working on the table? Can you level it properly and if so, can you doublecheck if the platter is level when the clutch is dis-engaged? I'm trying to find out if the chassis is not straight with regards to the platter and bearing. This would explain why coupling it to the heavy mass of the plinth made it quieter. It is unlikely but the thing that confuses me is that why would it be quieter coupled than de-coupled to the plinth if the suspension, motor and mushrooms for the chassis, are installed.

regards,

Abe


I can level the TT properly when the clutch is dis-engagded. The clutch also works fine .. no rubbing or whatsoever. I've tried replacing the rubber mushroom with a harder rubber material but to no avail. It is still quiter when the chassis is really resting on the plinth. Seems like mine is a unique case huh . Will do some checks on the motor rubber grommets.

regards,
jhun
User avatar
jomar
Citizen
Citizen
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:36 am
Location: The FINE country

Next

Return to IDLER TURNTABLES

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest