TD124 .. with Mushroom or No mushroom ??

classic analog rigs Thorens, Garrard, Lenco, EMT, etc..

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Postby jomar » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:01 am

Raf wrote:
2. On my double tonearm 124 setup, one tonearm is mounted closer to the motor than the other. My theory is that the further away from the motor, the less hum I am getting on my tonearm, despite both tonearms being mounted on brass.

3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

Hope this helps!


Raf,

Thanks for sharing your experience124. Planning on the to install also a 2nd tonearm on my 124 in the future to be used on older/not so good records, but your experience made me think twice .... i think i better collect headshells to replace carts in a breeze :lol: :lol: .

regards,
jomar
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Postby j-audio » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:06 am

if vibration is the problem, i may suggest check first the source of vibration, the motor. amandarae is right on putting the motor grommets.
check the grommets and screws on the motor, and also the pulley.
actually, i don't see any problem with your mushroom.
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Postby jomar » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:33 am

j-audio wrote:if vibration is the problem, i may suggest check first the source of vibration, the motor. amandarae is right on putting the motor grommets.
check the grommets and screws on the motor, and also the pulley.
actually, i don't see any problem with your mushroom.
..

thanks for the imputs.

The rubber grommets were just replaced January this year ... courtesy of Amandarae :wink: :wink: . Will do further checks on the motor and the screws .
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Postby Mamimili » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:05 am

Jhun, are the replacement mushrooms the right specification?
Is the correct hardness even known?
Does anyone have a durometer to be able to check???

Are you sure it's not the arm setup?
I can easily induce vibration at the cartridge (and stop the vibration just as easily). So much vibration that you can see it as well as hear it.

I have seen a few original Thorens “boxes” designed for the 124, they are very thin and light so the mushrooms makes sense for isolation. Perhaps a heavy plinth eliminates any requirement for mushrooms?

Is anyone near to you willing to try your mushrooms on their “mushroomless” 124 and see if the problem repeats itself?
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Postby jomar » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:33 am

Mamimili wrote:Jhun, are the replacement mushrooms the right specification?
Is the correct hardness even known?
Does anyone have a durometer to be able to check???

Are you sure it's not the arm setup?
I can easily induce vibration at the cartridge (and stop the vibration just as easily). So much vibration that you can see it as well as hear it.

I have seen a few original Thorens “boxes” designed for the 124, they are very thin and light so the mushrooms makes sense for isolation. Perhaps a heavy plinth eliminates any requirement for mushrooms?

Is anyone near to you willing to try your mushrooms on their “mushroomless” 124 and see if the problem repeats itself?


Paul,
I based my purchase on the feedbacks of the seller from the TD124 owners. Not sure if the mushroom worked properly on their 124. Specs wise … I have no idea :roll: :roll: :roll:

As far as I know, I setup the 3009 arm properly with its original bedplate grommets and alignment protractor . I even tried different carts since my first suspect is the AT440Mla has some problem. Will dismount the motor and pulley to check some abnormalities on my offday.

You are right on the light plinths but the heavier plinths has some advantage in the stability of the 124. I try to check with other TD124 owner who wants to try the mushroom and see how’s the outcome.

cheers,
jhun
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Postby amandarae » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:12 am

Jhun,

Here's one thing you might try.

Turn on the power. Dis-engaged the clutch. With the strobe well as the horizontal reference, looking at the front at eye level to the bottom of the top platter, do you see the line made by the platter bouncing up and down with respect to the horizontal plane? If you engaged and dis-engaged the clutch so that the platter change its position with regards to the main plate, do you see any changes on the bounce?

If you do, the problem is in the top platter as being warp or the rubber dots that suspend the top platter is not equal in thickness anymore if you see a decrease in "bounce" as you engaged and dis-engaged the top platter. You can do the same test with regards to the horizontal plane on the main platter with the top one removed. If there's a considerable bounce here, then the problem is much worse because we are talking about the main bearing and shaft alignment with respect to the sleeve bushing.

Made sense? Sorry man, I do not know how to explain it any better.


regards,

Abe
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Postby joe3rp » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:54 am

amandarae wrote:


Image


Image



The "suspended" 124 with the "on board 9"" arm may be how the manufacturer wanted it. The arm relation to the platter is always same.

The "suspended" 124 with the "outboard 12"" arm may be somewhat a flawed installation...or at least a troublesome one. Suspending (mushroom+leveler) the table, will result in non stable reference of the platter height and the armboard/VTA height. Changing table level, or vibration isolation/movement will also result in "variable relationship to the arm. E.g. Assume you dramatically adjust the leveling screw to level the platter, the external armboard may not be level or the VTA is now altered. Most/all modern table with outboard arm/armpods are of solid type suspension. IMHO.
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Postby amandarae » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:15 pm

Hello Joey,

Ah yes, of course! I can see what you mean.

That is why I have adjustable solid brass points on the bottom of the heavy plinth supporting it(see pic #1).

The way I level my table is to first level the arm by placing a bubble level on the base of the SME plate and made adjustments accordingly from the brass points. this is my reference plane. If the arm base plate is level, the arm, assuming mechanically sound, should also be level to the plane. Next will be to level the TT through the mushroom adjustments with the platform of the plinth as reference which is incidentally, already adjusted through leveling the SME bottom arm plate.


regards,

Abe
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Postby Raf » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:40 pm

jomar wrote:
Raf wrote:
2. On my double tonearm 124 setup, one tonearm is mounted closer to the motor than the other. My theory is that the further away from the motor, the less hum I am getting on my tonearm, despite both tonearms being mounted on brass.

3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

Hope this helps!


Raf,

Thanks for sharing your experience124. Planning on the to install also a 2nd tonearm on my 124 in the future to be used on older/not so good records, but your experience made me think twice .... i think i better collect headshells to replace carts in a breeze :lol: :lol: .

regards,
jomar


Most welcome, Jomar :)
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Postby jomar » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:05 pm

amandarae wrote:Jhun,

Here's one thing you might try.

Turn on the power. Dis-engaged the clutch. With the strobe well as the horizontal reference, looking at the front at eye level to the bottom of the top platter, do you see the line made by the platter bouncing up and down with respect to the horizontal plane? If you engaged and dis-engaged the clutch so that the platter change its position with regards to the main plate, do you see any changes on the bounce?

If you do, the problem is in the top platter as being warp or the rubber dots that suspend the top platter is not equal in thickness anymore if you see a decrease in "bounce" as you engaged and dis-engaged the top platter. You can do the same test with regards to the horizontal plane on the main platter with the top one removed. If there's a considerable bounce here, then the problem is much worse because we are talking about the main bearing and shaft alignment with respect to the sleeve bushing.

Made sense? Sorry man, I do not know how to explain it any better.


regards,

Abe



Abe,

I will try this test but i dont seem to understand the point of the bouncing thingy :roll: :roll: The bouncing thingy may be there but as long as not much play/wooble on the main bearing or the main platter/sub platter does not touch any part of the chassis during rotation then there should be no problem . It is just like playing warp records right ?

cheers ,
jomar
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Postby jomar » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:07 pm

Raf wrote:
jomar wrote:
Raf wrote:
2. On my double tonearm 124 setup, one tonearm is mounted closer to the motor than the other. My theory is that the further away from the motor, the less hum I am getting on my tonearm, despite both tonearms being mounted on brass.

3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

Hope this helps!


Raf,

Thanks for sharing your experience124. Planning on the to install also a 2nd tonearm on my 124 in the future to be used on older/not so good records, but your experience made me think twice .... i think i better collect headshells to replace carts in a breeze :lol: :lol: .

regards,
jomar


Most welcome, Jomar :)


Raf,

What other plates have you tried aside from brass ? Have you tried steel or maybe teflon plate to mount the tonearm ?

cheers,
jomar
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Postby Raf » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:18 pm

Hi Jomar,

I have only tried Acrylic and brass but I have heard of others using wooden armboards. The trouble with wood, I've been told, is that it tends to warp...Teflon and steel, I have zero experince with as of the moment.



jomar wrote:
Raf wrote:
jomar wrote:
Raf wrote:
2. On my double tonearm 124 setup, one tonearm is mounted closer to the motor than the other. My theory is that the further away from the motor, the less hum I am getting on my tonearm, despite both tonearms being mounted on brass.

3. I know that some have reduced hum by removing the 124's top plate and placing a doc lito mat directly onto the heavy turntable main plate (forgive my lack of prper terminology)

Hope this helps!


Raf,

Thanks for sharing your experience124. Planning on the to install also a 2nd tonearm on my 124 in the future to be used on older/not so good records, but your experience made me think twice .... i think i better collect headshells to replace carts in a breeze :lol: :lol: .

regards,
jomar


Most welcome, Jomar :)


Raf,

What other plates have you tried aside from brass ? Have you tried steel or maybe teflon plate to mount the tonearm ?

cheers,
jomar
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Postby j-audio » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:10 pm

you need further investigation, the arm, platter and motor are the suspects.
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Postby Mamimili » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:41 pm

Just a thought, why not give up on the mushrooms and go back to what you had, a dead quiet TT.
At this rate of advice you will have your 124 in many pieces soon!

Back to the advice:

Was the spindle service and mushroom addition done at the same time, or was the spindle service done first, with no noise noted until you fitted the mushrooms?
If done at the same time it suggests the platter is not perfectly aligned to the spindle.

Which motor do you have? The original motor needs 3 grommets and the later motor needs 6. Sorry but i don't know the motor names!
Thorens use a belt between the motor and the frame fixed stepped pulley to eliminate any motor vibration. So if you do not have a very noisy or very very hot motor, or a loose or worn belt, ignore the motor as a possible problem.

When you hear noise, is the anti-skate hanging weight vibrating as well? If so the arm setup is off. (I don’t mean alignment per say, but mechanical set up should be checked first, alignment last).

Following on from Joey and Abe's suggestions:
If you don't trust your eyes to use Abe's suggestion get a cheap Dial Test Indicator, how to use it is obvious and you will know if there is a problem after 1 revolution of the platter. With a DTI you can check for platter warp, platter to spindle alignment and bearing play (if the platter is perfectly aligned with the spindle).

Best of luck Jhun, Cheers, Paul
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Postby amandarae » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:18 am

jomar wrote:
amandarae wrote:Jhun,

Here's one thing you might try.

Turn on the power. Dis-engaged the clutch. With the strobe well as the horizontal reference, looking at the front at eye level to the bottom of the top platter, do you see the line made by the platter bouncing up and down with respect to the horizontal plane? If you engaged and dis-engaged the clutch so that the platter change its position with regards to the main plate, do you see any changes on the bounce?

If you do, the problem is in the top platter as being warp or the rubber dots that suspend the top platter is not equal in thickness anymore if you see a decrease in "bounce" as you engaged and dis-engaged the top platter. You can do the same test with regards to the horizontal plane on the main platter with the top one removed. If there's a considerable bounce here, then the problem is much worse because we are talking about the main bearing and shaft alignment with respect to the sleeve bushing.

Made sense? Sorry man, I do not know how to explain it any better.


regards,

Abe



Abe,

I will try this test but i dont seem to understand the point of the bouncing thingy :roll: :roll: The bouncing thingy may be there but as long as not much play/wooble on the main bearing or the main platter/sub platter does not touch any part of the chassis during rotation then there should be no problem . It is just like playing warp records right ?

cheers ,
jomar


Hello Jomar,

Okay, lets back off for a minute here. When you said "quieter" without the mushrooms than with the mushrooms, do you mean in reference to the noise of the motor or noise during playback?

If it is the motor and without the mushrooms when the tt rest on the solid plinth it is quiet, then by all means, ditch the mushrooms and be done with it.

If it is in reference to the playback, then my previous post applies in troubleshooting where the real "noise" is coming from.

regards,

Abe
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Postby jomar » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:24 pm

hi all ,

Thanks for all the help in figuring out what is going on in my TD124.

Spent my weekend to see what's wrong on my setup. I don't see any abnormaility on the platter/sub platter. I removed the belt to isolate motor from the pulley. No noise from the motor based on my hearing . Also did a check on the tonearm mounting .. i don't see any abnormality. After doing all these rubbish things and being like a crazy dog scratching my head & my balls i decided to ditch the mushroom and go mushroomless :lol: :lol:

Maybe in the future i will revisit again the issue or maybe send it for medical check-up :lol: , but for now ... i have to sit back and enjoy the music :wink: :wink:

have a nice weekend !!!
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Postby amandarae » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:29 pm

Great! Enjoy!

regards,

Abe



jomar wrote:hi all ,

Thanks for all the help in figuring out what is going on in my TD124.

Spent my weekend to see what's wrong on my setup. I don't see any abnormaility on the platter/sub platter. I removed the belt to isolate motor from the pulley. No noise from the motor based on my hearing . Also did a check on the tonearm mounting .. i don't see any abnormality. After doing all these rubbish things and being like a crazy dog scratching my head & my balls i decided to ditch the mushroom and go mushroomless :lol: :lol:

Maybe in the future i will revisit again the issue or maybe send it for medical check-up :lol: , but for now ... i have to sit back and enjoy the music :wink: :wink:

have a nice weekend !!!
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Postby jomar » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:47 pm

amandarae wrote:Great! Enjoy!

regards,

Abe



thanks bro . I'm still a rookie ... maybe i missed something on the setup. :roll: Will go thru again on the TD124 manual/maintenance .
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Postby Mamimili » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:23 pm

Good to her you are enjoying the music again :D

Next time, you need Milli's mushrooms. They can do magic :lol: :lol:
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Re: TD124 .. with Mushroom or No mushroom ??

Postby jomar » Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:27 am

I manage to resolve the noise issue on my TD124. Just want to share ....

I found that the Step pulley ( CB1351 ) is slightly rubbing against the TT chassis. To adjust the height, just tighten/loosen the screw at the bottom. This adjustment is quite trickey as you need to take note that the idler will hit the correct level on the step pulley and also make sure that the belt is not slanted withrespect to the motor pulley ( CB831 ).

Below are some pictures ... i hope it would benefit to some of our 124 owners.

Cheers,
jomar

Step pulley
Image

Adjustment Screw
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Parts drawing.
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