The LS3/5A

[mozilla]

The LS3/5A has cropped up once in a while in some of the discussions so I decided to start this thread. Info taken from Paul Whatton's site & the LS3/5A Yahoo Group. See links below:

FAQ:

History - The BBC conceptualized the LS3/5A as a monitor speaker to suit BBC environments where monitoring on headphones was not satisfactory and yet there wasn't sufficient room for larger monitors. These included outside broadcast vans and small studio control rooms. The idea was to have a monitor that would be accurate enough to allow producers to determine the quality of the live broadcasts. Note that during these years, the BBC was at the forefront of broadcasting high-quality live classical performances.

There was no suitable available commercial unit at the time, and so the Research Department of the BBC was asked to design one. The LS3/5 was based on an experimental loudspeaker which was developed by the BBC after work on acoustic scaling tests. The BBC used one-eighth scale models, and one-eighth wavelengths (IE, 8-times frequencies), to assess acoustical data without doing full-size studios.

Extensive research was conducted on cabinet material, damping, drivers, the very complex crossovers, to name a few. A small number of these units where made in house by the BBC and the rest licensed to outside manufacturers (such as Harbeth, Rogers, Spendor) under very strict quality control on meeting the BBC specs.

Sound - The LS3/5A is known for its "two huge strengths, its wonderful midrange and holographic stereo imaging".

Specs -wise, it does not go deep but you will be surprised at what the LS3/5A can project in the low end for it's size. Anyone intereted in deep bass should partner it with the AB-1. A subwoofer system designed specifically for the LS3. One of the best known LS3-AB1 setups is called the KI Method.

Setup - The LS3/5A sounds best on stands with lots of space around. Most users space it at 5-7' from the front wall or 1/3 down the room. Most users also prefer it NOT toed-in but facing directly forward.


Some pinoydiophiles with LS3/5A's in alphabeltical order (sorry if I missed anyone):

BenC - Rogers Limited Edition, 11ohm, bi-wire
Fld - Stirling Broadcast Special Edition (screw back), 11 ohm, bi-wire
Hypertriode - too may have passed his hands
Ichabod - Spendor Limited Edition, 11ohm, bi-wire
Mozilla - Spendor 11ohm, bi-wire
RaffyO - Spendor 11ohm, bi-wire
Toobs - Rogers 11 ohm, monowire & Rogers 15 ohm, monowire
Prscnpilot - Rogers 15 ohm, monowire, Kef Piano Black

Here are some useful links:
The Unofficial LS3/5A Site

HFN&RR's LS3/5A Shootout by Ken Kessler

Pinoydiophile LS3/5A Shootout

LS3/5A Forum

History of the LS3/5A c/o the Harbeth Site

Stereophile Reviews of the LS3/5A

LS3/5A places 24th on Stereophiles Hot 100 Products - Nov 2002 issue

[ichabod]

What I'm quoting in part is an article authored by Gordon Holt in "Stereophile" magazine.

Many consider floorstanders as better speakers because of their sheer size alone. True? Not quite I believe! Most old speakers were built bigtime. Large cabinets, even by today's standards, we see bookshelf speakers, wrongly called, as shelf speakers despite their size and weight that can likely break your bookshelf if you're not cautious where to place them

Does size matter? How about a small speaker like the LS 3/5a? How can these speakers create a sound that is much much larger than its size, and can indeed sound better than your average floorstanding speakers?

Here's what G. Holt says in his article on the LS 3/5a published in March 1977 if you care to review what he said about this small beeb legend of a speaker.

This spells out as clearly why the LS 3/5a can sound rather convincingly better (different) than your average direct radiating speakers, and I quote: "Another advantage of a small sound source is that it tends to radiate sound waves as expanding spheres rather than as a planar wave (as from large screens). HUman ears react in a seemingly paradoxical manner to a spherical sound field: The reproduced sound seems, much bigger than its source, yet the angular localization of sounds across the "stage" between the speakers (ei. the imaging) is dramatically improved. In fact, the apparent audible size of these tiny speakers is almost laughable; we had the feeling that it just could not possibly be."

In his footnote, G. Holt made this observation as well: "American visitors to England consistently report that the BBC transmits superb-quality sound and that unlike the US(where practically everything aired is canned), Britons are privileged to hear frequent libve broadcasts of orchestra concerts. It is thus reasonable to assume that the BBC engineers know good sound when they hear it."

I can't help but to say that the best judge to a speaker's sound is still and remains to be the trained- to- live sounds human ear.

Can someone tell me when's the next concert?

[XLR_silver]

pano naman kaming wala nito?

anyway, posting impedance curve measurement done by stereophile. wow! minimum impedance is above 8 ohms. (btw, which wire tap do you use: 8 or 16 ohms?)



which among today's commercially available (monitor/ bookshelf) speakers do you consider the LS3/5As worthiest successor? any other 'notoriously tube friendly' monitors around that we can use with our 'underpowered,' yet juicy-sounding valve amps?

[ichabod]

If you're refering to my post and permit me to answer you, the closest descendant to the LS 3/5a sound is the spendor 3/5a. That howver is my biased opinion said objectively and subjectively since I own both speakers from the spendor stable.

In fact I find that the S 3/5 can play louder, seems to take large amounts of power and its impedance curve I think does not go lower than 6 ohms. It's very amplifier friendly and sounds very good on ss amps of decent make. See Martin Collom's and Ken Kessler's review in Hi Fi News. Maybe Grant can provide that info since my copies are in near fading hard copies.

On the other hand, any good tube sounding ss amp and vintage tube amps can make beautiful sounds on an LS 3/5a. I'd be remissed if I didn't tell you that its sound belies its size. Positioned at close range, the music just endlessly flows unimpeded with a clarity that can pull your heartstrings.

There's only one problem. It's not easy to find them preused nowadays. I found mine in a Hongkong consignment store 2 years ago, but it's not easy to get one in exchange for SARS!

You can opt to buy 'em direct though from Stirling Broadcast in England, or as Ken Kessler would say ..."or forever hold your peace."

[mozilla]

I hook em up to the 16 ohm taps of my St-70.

James has both an LS3/5A and a Spendor S3/5. James can discuss the sonic similarities of the two better. Derek Hughes modelled the S3/5 after the LS3/5A. Harbeth also came up with their own LS3 clone.

At one time, it is told Franco Serblin of Sonus Faber applied for a license to build the LS3/5A. He later modelled the SF Minima after the LS3/5A and to this day uses the minima as a reference monitor against his newer designs..

[arnoldc]

What about the Spendor S3/5se? I am planning to make an ultimate solid state setup and may consider this model.

* the solid state amp will be DIY cheap and will kick some solid state butt *

[Hyperion]

The Minima FM2 is indeed a veritable LS3 5/A clone at least in sound if not in looks. They even share the same high impedance and 82 dB sensitivity. Serblin loves the midrange and the LS3/5A does it very well indeed.

The difference though is that the Minima has less bass than a typical LS3/5A. It's upper bass while still bumped up in typical BBC fashion is not as prominent. The treble is sharper on axis and less off axis. I think the Minima focuses/images a bit better than typical LS3/5As but does not sound as big and punchy.

[ichabod]

Since I own both and listen to both (please it's one at a time depending on my mood swings), I can tell you that Derek Hughes, formerly of spendor, have designed the S 3/5 so well to give us a good alternative to the LS 3/5a. It's been explained that spendor is being a bit clver to use the same iterations but the speaker itself is Derek's continuation of his undying romance with the LS sound, which we're told his father helped design for the BBC.

Soundwise, both speakers have more similarities than dissimilarities going for them. Aside from S 3/5 's more modern looks, the size of the cabinets are actually the same with the LS 3/5a rotated 90 degrees. What I mean is the S 3/5 looks narrower in front like you're looking at the side of an LS.

Living with them has afforded me a better appreciation of music, taken me to greater heights of what went on in the recording, the artistry, the feelings and expressions of the musicians as they perform in the spaces where they happen. In another words, what you might hear in a concert hall or some jazz pub, a good example of which is that "Jazz At the Pawnshop" album.

So for those of you who can't decide which, don't prolong the misery. If the LS is not available at the moment, get the S 3/5. When there's an opportunity to get an LS, by all means do so. It's nice to have both. Why?

TheLS would be definitely for your vintasge amp, while the S 3/5 will easily mate with a hybrid amp, or a good sounding ss.

[joe3rp]

Sir Ichabod,

Since you have already heard Ikes's Voigt...how do you compare the sound to the LS3/a and its variation.

[ichabod]

Before I get to answer that "inevitable" question, let me preface by saying that listening (what you like and don't like) to speakers is all matter of perspective. Whatever biases there are (and we all have our own preferences don't we?), I always tell myself to keep a very open mind when it comes to listening. Audio is quite a never ending journey to improve not only onc's hearing but our ability to enjoy music. Being without music is as bad as being dead, at least for most of us I assume.

Normally, I keep myself at bay, and never look for faults in one's system even after a long listen. Yes, I had the rare chance to visit and listen to Ike's Voigt speakers, and did enjoy what I heard. Ike's a very passionate man about his speakers, and from what I heard from him, he has stayed on with the voigt design, even improving on it with an enormous amount of patience and dedication I have yet seen from a DIYer.

Whatever are your reasons for asking, and I suspect they are valid, I can only sense they were brought about by the "comparisons" I made between the LS and the S 3/5a, its direct descendant. However, the point why I had to was because the man who posted earlier about the LS wanted to know which of the small speakers, the LS and S 3/5, is the "better" speaker still. I think I've answered him to the best of my "hearing" and "living" with these two wonderful speakers.

Since both speakers are from the same family (spendor) and come from the same BBC design origins, I thought it would be equally appropriate to instead give the inquirer what seems to me are their "commonly" mentioned differences which to be sure are far lesser than their likeness. Apart from those insignificant, nothing-to-quibble-about differences, I said that enjoyed both speakers, in the same breath that I enjoyed listening to Ike's Voigt.

To be honest, I've stopped comparing speakers after I have come to grips with a speaker that typifies (instead of perfectly) what appears to be the kind of sound that I hear "live." And not all of us should really agree on this one if it does not meet our own personal preference or taste. Even if it does, my being a lover of the spendor sound does not inhibit or prevent me from enjoying a different brand of speakers altogether. While we can all go anal and critical, in the end audio is still all about the music!

A true audiophile is one who knows how to stay content with his gear, and face the music and dance!

Fire away!

[mozilla]

Allow me to make-singit in James' classic "Fire Away" statement.

There is an LS3/5A room being planned for the next A/V show in Kuala Lumpur. It will be held at the Marriott Hotel, date to be announced.

Rough programme being proposed is the following:

Day 1 - Demonstrating the sound 'progression' of LS3/5a in the past 3
decades ( Audiomaster, Rogers 15R, Rogers 11R, Stirling 11R, in that
sequence).

Day 2 - Talks on adding subwoofer(s) to LS3/5a

Day 3 - Demonstrating limited edition of various LS3/5a.

For more info, follow this thread at the ls35a forum.

[mozilla]

What I like about the LS3/5A is its analogue, natural sound. Listening to the LS3 is like comparing the DSD CD, "Live Recordings at Red Rose" (that I commented on in the "Music" section) to regular PCM recordings which suffer from digititis.

A lot of modern speakers are voiced for today's electronic music and digital media. The BBC engineers on the other hand did extensive research and even conducted live vs. reproduced sound tests wherein they would listen to a live classical orchestra and walk briskly to the control booth to compare the sound with the prototype monitors while the imprint was fresh in their minds.

That in itself should tell you something.

Before I bought my LS, I went through several modern speakers in my limited-budget shortlist. I lugged my favorite CD's & my amp around every store in Manila. It only took me less than a few seconds to know I liked the sound of the LS after Rene graciously allowed me to demo it home.

James is right, individual preferences matter. Just try it out if you get the chance.

There's a waiting list at Rene's, he posted one for sale a few weeks ago and by the time I texted him that same evening, it was already sold.

[rtsyrtsy]

A true audiophile is one who knows how to stay content with his gear, and face the music and dance!

Fire away!

As requested, I'll fire away.

I think a true audiophile has enough judgement to know when to stay content (such as the dangers an uncaged single ended triode amp my 3 year old may be exposed to, he-he) and when to move on ahead towards something better, (not necessarily more expensive).

I would take your call for "staying content" though as a call for self-awareness of one's taste, music, room, gear, (maybe financial capacity?) etc. and changes to these.

[mozilla]

such as the dangers an uncaged single ended triode amp my 3 year old may be exposed to, he-he

Toobs taught me a neat trick which works & I have passed this on to friends who have moved on to toobs este tubes.

Grab you child's hand and bring it close enough to the glowing tube for him/her to feel the intense heat. While you do this, explain that daddy's toy is very hot and harmful.

I only did this once & my 7 and 3 year olds have never touched my amp since I brought it home. KOW.

.

[ichabod]

Hi Russ,

I guess that's another way to put it.

Your making a kid aware of the dangers of a hot tube amp helps illustrate the hidden dangers audio can let us go through if one isn't careful.

I know several who went through a labyrinth of audio gear in the guise of upgrading, and ended up destroying his hobby.

I guess it's good sense and is alright to improve one's system for as long as he knows what he's looking for, and stays "content" with it!

[XLR_silver]

If you're refering to my post and permit me to answer you, the closest descendant to the LS 3/5a sound is the spendor 3/5a. That howver is my biased opinion said objectively and subjectively since I own both speakers from the spendor stable.

In fact I find that the S 3/5 can play louder, seems to take large amounts of power and its impedance curve I think does not go lower than 6 ohms. It's very amplifier friendly and sounds very good on ss amps of decent make. See Martin Collom's and Ken Kessler's review in Hi Fi News. Maybe Grant can provide that info since my copies are in near fading hard copies.

On the other hand, any good tube sounding ss amp and vintage tube amps can make beautiful sounds on an LS 3/5a. I'd be remissed if I didn't tell you that its sound belies its size. Positioned at close range, the music just endlessly flows unimpeded with a clarity that can pull your heartstrings.

There's only one problem. It's not easy to find them preused nowadays. I found mine in a Hongkong consignment store 2 years ago, but it's not easy to get one in exchange for SARS!

You can opt to buy 'em direct though from Stirling Broadcast in England, or as Ken Kessler would say ..."or forever hold your peace."

hi ichabod!

thanks for your reply.

i like to play a bit louder than normal too, but if tube amps will have a more difficult time driving the spendor S 3/5, i guess i'll have to follow up on my question since i'm really more curious about a tube-amp/bookshelf match-up. are there any other alternatives that have similar impedance ratings as the ls 3/5a?

if someone wants to buy a brand new pair, will he really be limited to just the stirling broadcast and richard allan LS 3/5a options? or are there other tube-friendly "copies" that sound similar to the LS 3/5a (and are hopefully priced closer to the spendor s3/5)

btw, i was able to speak with ferdie ludo about this last week and he told me that his pair of stirling Bs (reference, walnut) are well worth every centavo he paid for. he was even nice enough to give me tips on the fastest way to order for a pair.

mozilla,

thanks again for the great links!


btw, here's a pic of the richard allan (cherry, i think) version.

[mozilla]

Ferdie's SB's the Reference Edition with the screwed backs. These are made just as the original BBC monitors were constructed. I believe there are only 2 in the world bearing the original BBC logo. These were the reference models in the HFN&RR shootout.

Most other LS3/5A's have fixed back panels. It is believed that the screwed backs have better sound due to a "lossier" cabinet which came as a result of the original R&D work.

[ichabod]

Almost all small speakers, totem, dyns, whafedale, paradigm, and many many more are good alternatives to the LS and the S 3/5. ONLY that they do not share as close a sonic uniqueness or peculiarity as the LS or S 3/5. Now is that bad? NO! Not at all.

My ears are so honed to listening to both the LS and S 3/5, but everytime I get to listen to some other worthy speaker, I get to enjoy what I hear as well. This should tell you that "preferences are preferences" and while we choose speakers for different reasons, we must do so based on our well informed understanding of audio primarily as a tool for reproducing music. If you are quite critical on sound as I think you are, you will not be disappointed with any of these speakers, more so with the LS and S 3/5.

For a speaker such as the LS to last this long and be sought after by many dyed in the wool and sometimes jaded audiophiles, is quite a feat, and ought to tell you something. The "magic" of the LS and S 3/5 is it's open effortless midrange that does not substitute authority, clarity, and bloom over leaness just so the speaker will sound neutral! Neutral is not good if it's not natural! And natural music is not anemic, enervated, exasperated, frustrated, agitated, and what have you?

If you consider an LS there are many amps that can work with it among them tubes like the Quad II, ST 70 which Rene Rivo swears by and I have no reason to disagree, and a host of other amps. Check the ls 3/5a group database and you'll see a long list of amps being used there, both tubes and ss, although the preference (that word again) is tubes.

The modern version of course of the LS and the closest sibling you might say is the spendor 3/5. I happen to have both from spendor. Frankly, I like both; will die without both!!

[mozilla]

p
anyway, posting impedance curve measurement done by stereophile. wow! minimum impedance is above 8 ohms.

A very tube friendly amp indeed. See:
http://www.symphonysound.com/articles/tubefriendly.html

Common valve amps used with the LS3/5A are the Quad II's, Leaks, Rogers E40, Dynaco St-70, Marantz 7, Eico HF-35. Several users even use 2A3s & 300B amps.

[ichabod]

There's your answer XLR silver!

What sayest thou? I don't mean to ask rude. But you've actually made a good point in raising that question. The discussion page that Grant refered is chockfull of information about the issue of impedance curves of speakers. And yes they used the Rogers LS 3/5a as an example of a tube friendlier speakers. I know several who are using 300b's for their LS 15 ohms versions. It works. So that should inspire you to get an LS 3/5a maybe? Good luck.