ls3/5a father and son shootout!

ls3/5a father and son shootout!

Postby handyboy » Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:00 pm

Today, January 23, 2005, 3:00 pm. I brought my Spendor Ls3/5a (bi-wire), 11 ohms to my father in laws (CIA) place for a shoot out with his Rogers Ls3/5a 15 ohms. Used his set up which is an st70 modified, pre amp fourplay, and his Jolida 100s tube out put cd player. The set up was on his sala. The speakers were placed around 3 feet off the wall and we were seated on his sofa which is about maybe around 3 meters from the speakers. I dont think this is the perfect positioning of the speakers but nevertheless "pwede na". The volume was set to 10 oclock. Fired away with some fourplay Jazz, then a sax player playing unforgettable then Diana Krall. After serious listening on his Rogers for about 20 minutes or so, we decided to switch to my Spendors. We played the same tunes on my Spendors for some serious scrutiny. Looking at CIA, i knew that there was something going on in his mind and at the same time on mine too. We kept it to ourselves until we fully memorize the character of each speaker. We stopped the disc and decided on a healthy discussion regarding what we heard and our views. I noticed that the vocals of his Rogers are more defined and clear. The Spendors have extended highs and bass. However the midrange of the spendors are not as clear as his rogers when the vocals are sang softly. He agreed with me on my views regarding the highs and the bass but not on the mids. He heard the mids to be just about the same. I tried to point out the difference, i explained that when we were listening to Diana Kralls song "Lets face the music and dance" everytime Diana Krall would sing a certain note softly the rogers would come out clear and crisp and the spendors a bit muffled. However, when she would sing a note loudly it would be the same, then when she would sing it softly again it would not be that understandable in my Spendors. So we played the same track over and over again. switching from the rogers to spendors to rogers to spendors. Trying to point out my observation. Finally, he agreed but not really convinced. I thought maybe because we were plugged in to his 16 ohm outlet in his st70 and his rogers being a 15 ohmer and mine an 11 ohmer, his rogers are more matched. Also noticed that whenever we switch to my Spendors, the volume of the music will be slightly softer.
Finally, in the emd of the shootout we could not decide which really sounded better because of preference perhaps. I like vocals a lot so His rogers were very ideal to my ear. However, he liked the high and bass extension on my spendors.

DEADLOCK!

Maybe CIA can give you a brief assessment on our little battle...
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Re: ls3/5a father and son shootout!

Postby cia » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:41 am

Gambyl,

I think you have summed it up quite well and there is really nothing much more I can add. I agree with your last word "Deadlock".
You being younger, I suppose your ears are much better than mine. You like mids and maybe that is why you were very critical of that range of the frequency. I like to hear highs and lows in addition to mids and maybe that is why I concentrated on those frquenscy ranges.
Anyway, it was fun doing a shoot out and finding out that there is really not much difference in sound quality between Spendor and Rogers.

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Postby ichabod » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:58 am

Maybe I can toss some info into the confusion you are in right now.

I have a spendor limited edition. It has cardas wiring on them. And according to Derek Hughes, spendor owner and guru as well to the LS 3/5a, the special wiring was intended to improve on resolution and detail. I have listened and compared both spendors and rogers (a pseudo 15 ohmer) and owner may react or participate in this duscussion by giving his views as well since he also happens to like spendors and still looking for a nice pair to buy.

Okay on to the sound of each.

Like what you said, I find the spendors a little (a tad) less forward (another explanation if you like in terms of clarity) in the midrange owing to its fullsome sound over what I think is a smoother, mellower highs. Many in the forum have observed the same thing.

If this can be of any help in resolving the sound difference, somebody in the LS forum said, and I'm merely parroting:

"My personal assessment of the three names that I have tried who made speakers is a s follows:

Rogers -- MOst superior vocal in its neutrality.

Harbeth -- Greater heights, punchier bass and marginally lower bass

Spendor -- Smoother all round and sweeter or mellow." End of quote.

I also own a roger studio 3. This model was to replace the LS 3/5a similar to Harbeth's P 3.
Both these speakers have been compared sometime ago in some publication. The studio 3 according to the author sounds a bit forward (voiced a little forward making the notes pitched a little higher and clearer (?) perhaps than the Harbeth P3 which has surpisingly an aluminum tweeter. Now gleaning from the way the Rogers are voiced, and my recollection of the Rogers LS 3/5a (pseudo 15 ohmers), I can safely correlate the voicing of both speakers, the studio and the Rogers LS (15) as essentially sharing the same voicing, "most superior vocals in it's neutrality."" And yes, the rogers studio 3 when compared to my spendor LS will exhibit that kind of difference, a difference that may spell a difference or some diverse opinion on the listener. Which is better? No doubt is that both sound good! And I guess the only way to tell is to do a good listen on vocals.

While the rogers may sound clearer and "neutral," not exactly a favorite word for describing speaker attributes for me, long spent hours of listening and discerning may reveal that it's neutrality may likewise be its own undoing. For instance, on recordings with heavy "sss" you find a rather neutral speaker a tad sibilant due to its neutrality. Why not play that first cut of stacy kent on that 24 bit cd album of hers just for some comparo. It's not remote as well that a more neutral sound can make things clearer but also leaner in nature, thus quite clearer to the ears. Leaner sound is not natural to me. There's nothing lean about live music and intruments on notes. A highish note played on any acoustic instrument still exhibit a certain roundness of tone that may not tonaly set the timber right on a forward sounding too neutral a speaker. But that it may sound easy to listen to to the ears is never the question. Most audiophile speakers appeal to many who wish because of its highish EQ. Don't you think?

So maybe there's no "deadlock" after all to both spendors and rogers?

LIstening at 3 feet against the front wall is not enough. Eight feet would be ideal. You may still find the rogers sound preferable due to its neutrality and that easy to hear (clarity), but the spendors may just pull a surprise you may not expect.
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Postby handyboy » Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:30 am

Ichabod,

Thanks for your informative and yet confirmation of what i heard!
As you were saying:
Rogers -- MOst superior vocal in its neutrality.

Harbeth -- Greater heights, punchier bass and marginally lower bass

Spendor -- Smoother all round and sweeter or mellow." End of quote

Thats exactly what our observation...The heavy "sss" was made a difference our comparison. I thought it was drowning the mids of the spendor but through your comfirmation. Now i know that it is the real character of Spendors. Regarding, the listening at 3 feet is the most we can do. i should find a bigger space to know what the rogers and spendors is all about.

Thanks for your time in helping us out! maybe we can have some sort of listening session one time!

Mozilla,

Any comment?
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Postby ichabod » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:53 pm

I think many who've owned and acquired the LS 3/5a may have erred in the placement of their speakers. It was not much known then that the LS should be placed away from walls. Just the opposite of the common thinking that it will do at less than what's prescribed. Placing them closer to walls will only invite more boominess to its sound. The stage will be limited. The midrange will have a boomy coloration. Even at the distance where I've set them when listening which is just some 40 inches from the front wall, I always remove or lower the bass tone on my vintage amp (thank God they believed in those before!) to get an open clear sound from the LS 3/5a.

Back to the spendor and rogers, I can detect a slightly forward sound on the rogers as compared to the spendor's voicing. That may have proven a bit advantageous on vocals specially male voices which can exhibit some chestiness. However, listening to the spendors and watching for that particular emphasis, what I hear is a distinctly more rounded albeit not lacking in bite sound as well. Maybe one can say "just right" which understandbly may not be for others. Just like the example of listening in a showroom. In most cases, the real stand out speakers are the ones that sound brighter. They sell more. Why because our human hearing gets impressed quickly by something that stupifies it! With stereos and gear, one needs to hear everything, and the more frontal they are, all the more impressive. But as it happens, many find bright sounding speakers to be irritating in the end. Specially if you have tweeters that are like dental drills!

One of the reasons why I can appreciate single drivers on open baffles aside from the LS 3/5a. True. It may lack the extension and highs of a typical two way system, but on the other hand you avoid some excesses in the highs that can be quite unnatural to our hearing.
But many of us want to hear it all, including the highest highs and that's good reason why speakers with tweeters are much prefered not because they are as natural, but because you can hear more.

Do another shoot out, and let us know. Maybe you can invite some LS users too.
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Postby cia » Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:32 pm

Hi Ichabod,

Thank you for all the insight on both Rogers and Spendor. If I read your comments correctly, both speakers exhibit their own character. Liking or disliking their respective sound is mostly personal taste. I was able to listen to the Rodgers out to about a third of the room, about 7 feet. It became a little to lean for me and the sibilance was a little too much for my liking. The distance from the wall I prefer is about 5 feet.
Thanks again for all your comments.

CIA
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Postby ichabod » Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:33 pm

Bingo! As I suspected. That will be the trade-off on them Rogers. But the spendors may be a little different. I'm not too sure about Gambyl's. But mine likes them far from the front wall I'm facing. That's to say 7 or 8 feet of space at the back of the spendors. But only if you have side walls that where they're about more or less 3-4 feet away, no toe in at 6 feet apart center of woofers. Any other set-up I've tried did not worked for me save the long wall method at lesser room depth. In other words, a narrow rectangular room will yield good results as well; do a 3d, and keep its focus and stay midband clear without losing its robustness.

"...both speakers exhibit their own character." I think so but they're not predisposed to sound different at all in a larger sense. Still an LS. Maybe it won't be too noticeable to pair a spendor and rogers in an OB van or some studio as I've heard that's always possible by BBC standards for these speakers. That by itself speaks a lot.

Regards. I'm happy you've likewise succumbed to the LS contagion which is non other but mozilla!
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Postby handyboy » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:57 pm

Hi cia and ichabod!

Just finished rearranging my sala because of my spendors. Now the set up of my spendor is probably 4.5 feet away from the back wall and the distance of each channel to me if you measure it diagonally, roughly around 6 feet. Then Vwalah! The character came out. it still maintained the highs and lows but the mids improved alot. The booming sound from the back wall disappeared. the vocals went right smack in the middle. then a very dark background with notes from instruments coming out from their perspective direction. Strange! for a speaker supposedly built for nearfield listening, the character comes out with more space from the back front and sides. Earlier it was 3.5 feet from the back wall and it sounded very dry. was wondering what happened. Then i moved it about a foot closer then spendor magic!

Thanks for the info ichabod!
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Postby ichabod » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:07 pm

I'm happy for you! Now you've got that spendor magic, but myth it is not!

The spendor through the years of use, if set-up properly can throw a deeper soundstage than most small speakers, and keep a robust tone on instruments and the human voice. In fact, it has a deeper sound than the rogers that your dad had to keep them close to the wall.

Keep experimenting. I bet you'll get more backstage space making the speakers disappear as the illusion improves or grows on you.

These speakers are better listened to "nearfiled" but with ample back space. In fact you're a lot nearer to the speakers than the speakers themselves to your front wall. That was the placement I had before and was truly amazed at how these speakers can produce some realism of the recording and the venue.

On with the music, and leave those audio woes behind!
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Postby mozilla » Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:14 am

I've found that maintaining an equilateral distance betw speakers & listener at 6' is just about right, ie speakers 6' apart (center to center) and 6' diagonally to the ears.

Positioning them <4' from the front wall (wall behing speakers) will just reinforce the 120hz hump and muddy the bass and make it boom. A higher stand will also help open up the mids as well as there's less interaction w/ the floor.

If you want the best of both worlds, get a Spendor 15ohmer. :twisted:
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Postby raffy » Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:43 am

Gambino,

Yo bud! While you are experimenting with your Spendor set-up you might want to check out how high your stands are as Moz noted. For the longest time mine were on 24" foundation stands. Then I would read about the set-ups of Ichabod and Moz who have much higher stands, I think 28-30" inches. I put 3.5" heavy slabs under my foundation stands and now almost at 28" nearfield set-up the music just fill up the entire room. Huge improvement was noticed not just by me but by Paolo and the rest of the guys who camr by that night. Soundstage is much, much bigger. El cheapo tweak that makes the Spendors look better at that height.

Enjoyed reading your LS comparative. Long live the Spendors :wink:

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Postby ichabod » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:19 am

Very good suggestion from Raffy there if you haven't.

Yes, "long live the Spendors."
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Postby marty_e » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:20 am

Or a SOLID mammoth 26" kamagong stand beneath the LS as some nuts in Alabang have em. I have reported this to the DENR and they'll investigate... Raf, Gamby should drop by the neighborhood sometime and bring his and your LS there for another shootout along with MVA's.
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Postby cia » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:35 am

ichabod wrote:Very good suggestion from Raffy there if you haven't.

Yes, "long live the Spendors."


May I request some comments from Rogers 15 ohm owners.
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Postby ichabod » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:46 pm

CIA there's no doubt the Rogers have lived long enough! It has the most LS manufactured about 60,000 I heard. What better proof!? Granting that all 22,000 plus of those spendors are in default, the Rogers will have a few thousands more in following. It will be the longest king of the LS! I'm allied to you. I have a Rogers too.
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Long Live

Postby Mr. Plumber » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:43 pm

:) Yes, Long Live the Spendors :)
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Postby handyboy » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:51 pm

raffy wrote:Gambino,

Yo bud! While you are experimenting with your Spendor set-up you might want to check out how high your stands are as Moz noted. For the longest time mine were on 24" foundation stands. Then I would read about the set-ups of Ichabod and Moz who have much higher stands, I think 28-30" inches. I put 3.5" heavy slabs under my foundation stands and now almost at 28" nearfield set-up the music just fill up the entire room. Huge improvement was noticed not just by me but by Paolo and the rest of the guys who camr by that night. Soundstage is much, much bigger. El cheapo tweak that makes the Spendors look better at that height.

Enjoyed reading your LS comparative. Long live the Spendors :wink:

Raffy



Thanks raffy! I have a 29' inch stand for my spendors! The sound was fantastic because the height of the speaker is just about the height of your ear. I think a lower stand is to low for the Ls35a. Still enjoying the new toy. Please feel free to comment and suggest. More knowledge, More power!
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Postby handyboy » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:53 pm

mozilla wrote:I've found that maintaining an equilateral distance betw speakers & listener at 6' is just about right, ie speakers 6' apart (center to center) and 6' diagonally to the ears.

Positioning them <4' from the front wall (wall behing speakers) will just reinforce the 120hz hump and muddy the bass and make it boom. A higher stand will also help open up the mids as well as there's less interaction w/ the floor.

If you want the best of both worlds, get a Spendor 15ohmer. :twisted:


Finally the Mozilla has spoken! I have my spendors at 5 feet off the back wall now. quite interesting!
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Postby handyboy » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:55 pm

marty_e wrote:Or a SOLID mammoth 26" kamagong stand beneath the LS as some nuts in Alabang have em. I have reported this to the DENR and they'll investigate... Raf, Gamby should drop by the neighborhood sometime and bring his and your LS there for another shootout along with MVA's.


Hi Marty,

just saw MVA today in renes place. I was buying some sleeves from George. We had a very good discussion about ls35a. Also my consonance pala is with him na. hehehe.
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Postby JackD201 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:43 am

Gambs,

It's just so cool you and CIA, your Pops, get to hang out and do stuff together! I should invite my father in law for some listening soon. Looks like you are either both being extremely polite or actually prefer eachothers kitty coffins. Do i see a trade looming? Hehehe.

Ichabod,

7 feet? Kind of extreme for speakers designed to be used inside a truck or a "lorry" as the limeys put it. 5 feet max sounds about right in a standard manila home. What's your room like? Must be very well damped to go 7 feet from the back wall. Just curious. Thanks.
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