Ls3/5a

[handyboy]

Hi,

Ws members always mention this type of speakers. What does this mean exactly. Are they specs? How do you know if a speaker is ls3/5a? My father in law has one and its rogers. He tried explaining it to me but somehow didnt really understand. Thanks for the help in advance!

[JackD201]

Hey Gambino, the bug has really bitten you hard huh? Hahahaha. The LS 3/5a was commissioned by the BBC for monitoring use in their OB Vans in the very early seventies. They were designed in house by the BBC design team and liscensed to various manufacturers for production the most notable being Rogers, Spendor, Harbeth and Goodmans although other small companies like RAM , Chartwell and one more I can't remember made them as well. They aren't specs but an actual model of speaker. All I know is that to be called an LS 3/5a you had to follow BBC specs which among other things stipulated the use of specific KEF drivers. I really don't know if they are still in production today last I heard they stopped around 2000 or 2001 maybe earlier. Raffy has a pair of the spendors and they sound really good. To be around for 30 years they have had to be. It is kind of like a cult item in audio world, the speaker that will not die the consumer equivalent to GASP the proffessional Yamaha NS-10 which were incidentally designed for almost the same purpose. Signal clear, over and out........

[mozilla]

Gamby,

I started a thread on what the LS3/5A is. You can find it here:
viewtopic.php?t=649

There are also links in that thread most notably the yahoo/ls3/5a group where you will find an almost cult following for these speakers.

In the early 70's, the BBC was at the forefront of musical reproduction & broadcast in the world. They broadcast live music especially classical. At that time, the BBC had fund allocation for an R&D team which was composed of engineers who are now considered legends in audio.

They developed the LS3/5A as a monitor speaker for OB vans. It was voiced for music & human speech specifically. Ichabod will tell you that it was design to be so accurate as to allow the engineer to determine the source of the announcer's live broadcast just from the speaker's voice. As it turned out, once you get the human voice right, the sound of acoustic instruments also turned out to be reproduced correctly.

It was also at that time where the BBC engineers designed their speakers based on actual listening comparisons. They would have a live performance in one studio, then walk briskly to the monitor room in order to compare the sound of live music versus the reproduction of the prototype design. They would do this until they got it right.

The LS3/5A was a BBC Grade II monitor. Its designation was a design code by the BBC, "LS" meaning "loudspeaker", "3" meaning for use in Outside broadcast and "5" being the model number and "A' being the revision. Note that there wasn't an LS3/5B which means that the BBC did not find the need to revise an already good design.

The final design of the LS3/5a came after numerous tests as far as the type of plywood used (yes it had to be a certain type of plywood coming from a certain country) in the baffle, the drivers & the very complex crossover.

It was developed after the BBC studied acoustical scaling in Kingston in 1/8 scale. It is very critical of positioning. It needs to breathe and typically, it SHOULD be situated halfway across the room at about a 6' spread.

More info on these speakers can be found in a sdedicated LS3/5A section found here:
viewforum.php?f=41

If you need more info, PM me. I have tons of documentation in pdf on the LS3/5A.

JackD,

The LS3/5A are still in production by Richard Allan & Stirling Broadcast. At one time, Franco Serblin of Sonus Faber loved these speakers so much that he applied for a license to produce them from the BBC but it was denied. His frustration resulted in the Minima - his own version of the LS3/5A.

It is interesting that you mentioned Raffy's Spendors. Spendor was the only company that went beyond the BBC specs. They got a special permit to use higher quality copper for the coils. Apart from that, Spendor matched all drive units one by one. Those supposedly "matched" driver units from Kef were double checked and re-matched by Spendor to the closest tolerances.

Cheers!

[ichabod]

Everything's said and said well here by Mozilla.

Of all the speakers I've heard, small and big, these BBC monitors seem to speak more eloquently (emotionally expressive) than all the rest I've lived with and heard in auditions. It's just that. A speaker for those who want natural sound. But of course there are other speakers that are likewise very good in their own way that the LS is not. Example: it can't play as loud. Best listening position is nearfield. You need tubes to make it sound the way it does. The only speaker that is much sought after when used. It takes time to break in and make the drivers loose. Three years of breaking will improve its sound until it's ten years old and bloom. If one is more concerned about music, the art form, acoustical timbre, and the minute nuances of acoustical instruments, the LS 3/5a can be an artist's tool and reference to live acoustical music. After all, it's been designed to fill that gap -- to connect the "realism" of a live performance to the recorded one. JUst my listening notes and impressions from listening and other people's comments on this classic speaker.

Hope this helps.

[mozilla]

I agree that tube amps sound good with the LS. Another common consesus is that you don't use amps that are greater than 40wpch on these as they will drown the speakers. I have tried these with SET amps and they do well except that your listening level & choice of material will be limited.

[handyboy]

Jack,

I got bitten big time by the bug! I just switched to analog about a week ago. thinking of setting up a second one using a bookshelf. Am currently using a floorstander. triangle zerius. Thanks for the info.

Hi Grant and Ichabod,

Like Jack, Thank you for the detailed explanation of the history of ls3/5a. On my path for my second system. This time i will carefully audition each and every part. from speakers to amps to players to interconnects. exciting!!! Another wallet beater! Thats ok though. as long as the wife does not know the price...hehehe...Thanks again!!!

[audiobuds]

in addition to mozilla & ichabod’s info.

i believe LS3/5 was an acronym assigned by BBC engineers on their prototype speaker during design stage. LS stands for “Loud Speaker” and 3/5 was the model number assigned by BBC engineers to have distinction between their various speaker designs at that time. and it’s obvious “a” was the revision status when they make changes to their original design after licensing.

pls. follow this link for more info:

viewtopic.php?t=4694

i must admit i'm now a new member of this cult

[handyboy]

Hi audiobuds,

i guess i should check this type of speaker. For it to be singled out by members then it must be really good. thanks for the info!

[mozilla]

Gamby,

Make sure you listen to one that's properly set up. I know a lot of people who came away disappointed because they heard did not hear these in the proper environment.

A properly setup unit will give you natural sound with a holographic soundstage.

[mozilla]

Gamby,

What type of music do you listen to?

[handyboy]

I listen to Jazz, a little bit of rock-like pink floyd, doors and the like. but lately been listening to pat metheny, frank sinatra etc etc. Little bit of jacintha and the like. Thanks for helping out grant. I use my triangle floorstanders right now. Am sure i will appreciate jazz and vocals with the ls35a. Still looking around and listening to different speakers. Unless, My father in law decides to give me his rogers for xmas... which is most unlikely...

[audiobuds]

modz,

any chance we can transfer this thread under "Special Interest - LS3/5a".

thanks

[handyboy]

that would be a good idea audiobuds! i was just a bit embarrassed to ask.

[Killer Mike]

Jack,

I got bitten big time by the bug! I just switched to analog about a week ago. thinking of setting up a second one using a bookshelf. Am currently using a floorstander. triangle zerius. Thanks for the info.

Hi Gamby,

Are you happy with your speakers? if so, then work around them. What amp are you using right now? Are you satisfied with it in terms of sound?
Setting up a system is all about matching and the sound you will get. Just helping you out bro

[handyboy]

yes. i am very happy mike! using an st70 then a cjpv10a pre. The sound is amazing. am planning to set up my second one using bookshelf. There is a big difference on the sound a bookshelf produces i believe. Wanted to get the eico of detubo sana eh, i wonder who got it... luckily, i have grant ichabod jack audiobuds and you to help me sort things out. Also ws for being the medium. thanks for your help!!!!

[Killer Mike]

yes. i am very happy mike! using an st70 then a cjpv10a pre. The sound is amazing. am planning to set up my second one using bookshelf. There is a big difference on the sound a bookshelf produces i believe. Wanted to get the eico of detubo sana eh, i wonder who got it... luckily, i have grant ichabod jack audiobuds and you to help me sort things out. Also ws for being the medium. thanks for your help!!!!

You're always welcome Take your time and do a lot of auditioning.
Goodluck on your next system

[JackD201]

Anytime Gambino! Thanks Mozilla and Ichabod. I'm a real trivia nut so it's great picking up all this info from you guys! There is a last bit of trivia though, a slight debate actually on wether there SHOULD have been a change of designation from 3/5a to 3/5b. This occured when Harbeth came out with the 11ohm version after the original 15ohm. Apparently the old woofer the B110 sp1003 was becoming short on supply and KEF was kinda sick of making them, KEF turned over the manufacturing machines to Harbeth who then made the B110 sp1228 or the 11ohm version. Should the BBC have reclassified when it changed the mid bass unit with one that was COMPLETELY redesigned? ((((((cue in mystery music)))))))

[ichabod]

I'm not too sure about Harbeth making the drivers. It's always been Kef. Even the new ones now are still made at Kef I reckon from Stirling. But they need some schedule to follow to make one lot of these drivers.

There are differences I know in the xover between the 15 and the 11 ohms. Gordon Holt has an old review of the 15 to the 11 ohm versions, and some notable facts had emerged from it. His report says the 11 ohm version had become relatively sweeter and less bassy on the hump. There was a change in the surround of the B110 as well to account for its milder sound. Spendor as Mozilla mentioned had gone at length to check the matching of the drivers from Kef, and even made tolerances on the xover closer or tighter. Does that change anything? Will some parts improvement change the design?

My LS 3/5a is not the standard kind. But I don't feel or hear it is a different sounding LS say from that of Mozilla's.

[JackD201]

There was a move to a PVC surround, and they were no longer doped among other things as a result of a computer aided redesign. Checked, harbeth did indeed manufacture their own B110 sp1228 drivers. There are pics on the harbeth website.

Funny but actually aside from their excellent qualities these are the little things that make them such collectibles. I wonder if anybody ever tried collecting them in all their incarnations?

[mozilla]

I wonder if anybody ever tried collecting them in all their incarnations?

There a lot of LS3/5A fan (atics) in HK and these guys are collecting or trying to collect the different versions.

For example, among the Rogers 15 ohms there are gold tags, black tags, metal, plastic, et and different versions between them.

There are the original Rogers 15ohms of which I think only about 100 were made with a distinctive brown grille (not black). At the onset (here's more trivia for you Jack), the BBC only called em LS3/5. Rogers started producing them and to the ire of their "boschif" Jim Rogers, the BBC designated them as LS3/5A's when it was annaounced to the HiFi press in 1974.

In 1975 Rogers started production then went bust in 1976. Jim Rogers was a BBC insider, a sort of "old school" kinda guy but at that time, rejection rates of LS3/5A's were high.

Rogers was put on receivership and the buyers bought a trading company called Swisstone. Swisstone continued production under the Rogers badge. It would be interesting to know what serial number Rogers (Swisstone) started with.

Jim Rogers then set up JR Loudspeakers in 1977 and produced the famous JR149. (Rene Rivo has one)

Then Dave Stebbings, a BBC employee set up Chartwell in partnership with Joseph Pao who had the capital from his other businesses.

In 1978 Chartwell went bust. Production costs were high & Joseph was starting to subsidize it from his other endeavors.

Rogers (actually Swisstone) bought Chartwell from the receiver. Rogers was interest in buying Chartwell was for the manufacturing
equipment rather than for the brand as Chartwell apparently had invested heavily in drive unit production facilities.

Just a bit of LS3/5A history culled from Paul Whatton & his ls3/5a group and emails w/ some of the HK gurus.