AB-1 revisited

AB-1 revisited

Postby rega » Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:54 am

interesting thread on ls35a forum...


From: KI ARCHITECT <kiarch@t...>
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 8:20 am
Subject: Re: [ls35a] AB/1s revisited...



Hi Dave,

The reason why AB-1 without the spikes seems to work better in your system is
because the frequency from AB-1 is slightly diffused. When I was searching for
the right position of AB-1, I removed the spikes for ease of shifting about, but
my wooden parquet flooring was not the best workmanship that you can expect, its
not well levelled. So, you could be right. The fact that you have got it to
sound good to you is more important than anything else! Congratulation Dave.

IMHO, the fact that you mentioned "With the spikes there is certainly bass but
it has no texture or definition" is due to the sound from AB-1, even with 6"
apart, has overlaid into the frequency of LS3/5a coupled with its sound energy
is too 'powerful' that has overpowered the LS3/5a. Hence you have more bass but
lacking in texture and definition. Why? Because texture and definition of bass
comes from LS3/5a and not AB-1.

There are many issues need to look at in matching AB-1 to LS3/5a, one is a
frequency bandwidth crossovers between AB-1 and LS3/5a, next is their 'energy'
level matching. Frequency crossover is commonly said and it is well understood.
Energy matching is less been mentioned and some said sound characteristics
differences, which is again another thing all together. So is Timing. But energy
in sound means "strenght", they may sound similar in characters and at the same
timing but they can be huge in difference in their strenght.

It is particularly critical to get the equipment to sound right before judging
the sound from AB-1. Laurie mentioned "vibration control", I am into that for a
long time and I applied forces transfer in building structures and material
physical properties and charcateristics, etc. thereafter I can perform magic to
my system. This is more critical for solid state amp than with valves. In your
set up, AB-1 without the spikes sound more right.

Like I have said before, if it sounds great without the spikes, then it must be
right! Calling it a flut if you must, and it does happen often in hifi, at the
given set up in your system, no spikes sounded right. Live with it for a while
and see whether you heart asked for anything more than what you now have. May be
next time it would be different again. As I also wanted my AB-1 to go deeper and
with more weight. Without the spikes, you loose these two.

Congratulations,
Jo


----- Original Message -----
From: David Fagan
To: - Yahoo! LS3/5a mailing list
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 3:38 AM
Subject: [ls35a] AB/1s revisited...


Jo,

Something interesting...

Last week I felt I had been listening to my Spendor BC1s for long enough and
needed to get back to some serious LS3/5a listening.

So out went the BC1s and in came the Harbeth LS3/5as on Tallis stands. I
also brought in my Rogers AB/1s. In haste (and to aid setting up) I just
stood the AB/1s WITHOUT spikes on their concrete plinths behind the
Harbeths.

I also wired everything up single-wired (again just to save time)...

...and surprise surprise the combination with AB/1s actually sounds good. I
played around with different combinations and have come to the conclusion
that the bottom spikes are the major cause of my bad bass problems. With
the spikes there is certainly bass but it has no texture or definition.
Without the spikes, using a bit of Blutak to "bond" the AB/1s to the
concrete plinth (about 4" high), the bass sounds good - not quite BC1 depth,
definition or texture - but a total revelation.

This is the opposite of what I expected. Although I have never been happy
with the bottom spikes - I have never been able to fasten them to be
absolutely rigid (even with locking nuts).

So I'm thinking of unscrewing the wooden AB/1 plinth and seeing if I can get
a solid stone (nicely polished) 4" base that can be screwed to the bottom of
the AB/1s.

Any idea if this will work? Any idea why the bass is so much better without
the spikes? By the way it's still not "perfect" but it now transforms the
Harbeths :-)

Dave.

[/i]
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Postby ichabod » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:23 am

I know some people who will not choose speakers that go lower than 90-80 Hz. for fear it might muddle some the mids. I tend to agree. With room loading, your 80 Hz may likely fall lower due to room interaction.

This could be a problem if one ain't careful setting up or positioning the AB1s vis-a-vis the LS 3/5a. In the set-up I've heard, I can "hear" still a somewhat detached base to the LS sound. A separate source bass can be detected still. The Ls alone sounds coherent from top to bottom, or should I say from bottom top! I wish I could go listen to Jo Ki's set-up. From what I've heard though his room which is smallish have been treated which should help integrate both. Something yet to go and figure!
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Postby audiobuds » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:13 pm

Richard Allan's inspired LS3/5a - AB1 combo.

a must for ls lovers to figure out once available!

Image

more info:

http://www.richardallanaudio.com/ls35a. ... oducts.htm
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Postby vintage_dog » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:10 am

after over 3-4 years, i finally decided to set-up my mint (to read NOS) AB1 rosewood by installing the base, spikes, terminal metal rods, etc...

i had my Rogers LS3/5A sitting a top the AB1s as recommended, looking exactly the same as above picture (but only rosewood) with the speaker terminal rods secured on 6 terminals per channel. in this set-up, the system uses the AB1s crossover and the LS3s are not running full-range. in the past i had used the Ki method (LS and AB1 running in parallel with the LS atop separate stands)

they are absolutely gorgeous looking...cute actually....a hybrid bookshelf and floorstander

sound: still breaking in, but one notices the deeper image this combo creates. the 4ohm MV60se didn't seem to drive it well, so i shifted to a Tono-ST70 at 8 ohms. nice sound. not as tight on bass but mids are just beautiful. i wish for more snap and speed, but that may be a break-in thing...

will use this set-up in my attic mini-HT. that should break-in the speakers faster than before... ;-)
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Postby marty_e » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:31 am

I'd be more than happy to break them in :lol: :lol:
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Postby cia » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:40 am

vintage_dog wrote: so i shifted to a Tono-ST70 at 8 ohms. nice sound. not as tight on bass but mids are just beautiful.


I assume the ST 70 had a 16 ohm tap. If yes, would using it make a difference in sound quality?
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Postby vintage_dog » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:46 am

marty - sure...your neighbor from kalipayan has also volunteered to break them in... :)

cia - will try the 16 ohm tap
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Postby vintage_dog » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:52 am

tried the quad IIs last night on the LS3-AB1 set-up.

well, i couldn't play it loud enough. somehow, with the AB1 on circuit, the speakers just want more power.
:(
will try with eico monoblocks soon :wink:
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Postby ichabod » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:12 am

When we tried the Quads on the LS/AB1s, it was obvious like you found it to have wanted more power. Raising the pot caused it to clip. It definitely would like more power so I'd looked forward that you'd say it would do better with them eicos. How about your stored fishers there V_D? Oscar's mono block fishers on el 37s plus the fisher 400CX2 preamp are glorious on them and that's still the set-up he listens to I believe.

It would be nice to hear from Grant as soon as he gets to listen to Jo Ki's set-up which uses the AB1s. He may see Jo Ki by Sunday or MOnday for a listen, di ba Grant?
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Postby BenC » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:37 am

Hi Francis,

IIRC using the 16ohm tap in my dyna ST70, my Rogers LS35a with the AB1 (using Jo Ki setup) produced a wonderful sound with a more defined and tighter bass. Using the 8ohm tap somehow made the bass bloated and less defined YMMV ... Haven't listened to this setup for over a year now. Think I'll set them up this weekend for a listen!

Cheers!
BenC
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Postby mozilla » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:02 pm

Yep. I'll be meeting Jo on Sunday. He'll be picking me up from my Hotel and we'll listen til the wee hours of the morning.

For many years, Jo used a Quad II (orig classic) to drive both LS3/5A and the AB-1 with a passive pre.

He is now using a Quad II - 40 with KT-88's instead of KT-66's. He says that the QII-40 with GEC Gold Lion KT88 is "heavenly".

The QII that you tried was the Diamond Jubilee edition. It is not the same circuit and winding as the QII classic and some people feel it does not have the same sound endeared many audiophiles to the classic.

So far, my experience with the combos i've heard tally with your observation of the "detached" bass coming from the AB1 . So I am really looking forward to hearing Jo's system and see how well integrated the AB-1 can be with the LS3/5A.
Last edited by mozilla on Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ichabod » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:57 pm

Just went back a bit up to the discussion posited by Dave re his spikeless AB1s. In answer to his observations, Jo Ki have pointed out what I have since long wanted to say about the "energy" that the AB1s add to the otherwise already quite balanced sound that the LS produces as a stand alone speakers provided you're in some nice small room, and in a nearfield listening distance to the speakers.

Even in a larger room like Oscar's I still say I'm not used to overwhelming energy from the bass specially on some bass strong material. But this was what I almost wanted to say and already had a write-up ready for posting in response to V-D's observation a few days ago but cancelled it until I went back to the above post now only to see the very same thing I had all along wanted to say. I suspect that if you have more bass "strength" as Jo Ki calls it, it spoils the inherent balance in energy output and size vis-a-vis its midrange and treble energy.

And I'm wary that Dave's accidental discovery set-up for his LS and AB1s will work either with Oscar's since we know the surface where it stands is made of wood. But it is worth trying perhaps under that heavy marble base. Whadya say Oscar?
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Postby vintage_dog » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:16 pm

mozilla wrote:Yep. I'll be meeting Jo on Sunday. He'll be picking me up from my Hotel and we'll listen til the wee hours of the morning.

....


wow grant...make sure to take pictures :-)

some things i'd like to know:

exact position of the speakers relative to each other and the side/back walls

height and type of stands used for the ls3

cables and amplification used

dimensions of room

flooring used

merienda served :lol:

have a great sunday!

:D
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Postby vintage_dog » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:24 pm

BenC wrote:Hi Francis,

IIRC using the 16ohm tap in my dyna ST70, my Rogers LS35a with the AB1 (using Jo Ki setup) produced a wonderful sound with a more defined and tighter bass. Using the 8ohm tap somehow made the bass bloated and less defined YMMV ... Haven't listened to this setup for over a year now. Think I'll set them up this weekend for a listen!

Cheers!
BenC


Ben....you made my day!

worked unbelievably well!

Tono piano -> ST70 (16 ohm tap) - AB1/LS35A

:D
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Postby mozilla » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:27 pm

Sure thing VD. We'll be meeting Sunday 10PM. As always, it's fun to be with a like-minded audiophiles and music lovers. I'll be sure to share the experience w/ the WS folks.

BTW, when I used the ST70, i used the 16o tap as well.
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Postby BenC » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:28 am

Francis,

Good for you! Glad to be of help. :) One thing however, I don't like about that set-up is ... everything I'm supposed to do to is put on hold! Very addicting yung music coming out from that set-up. I oftentimes find myself stuck in my listening position! :D

Cheers,
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Postby ichabod » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:13 am

BenC, how might you be doing?

Aren't we waiting for our BBC correspondent in K.L. for his LS listening report? What's keeping him?
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Postby BenC » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:07 am

Hi James,

Lately been fiddling with my analog gear. I haven't setup the AB1's yet just the LS3's (so I can concentrate on what I'm doing with the analog gear) :lol: I'm auditioning Pican's Extremephono "Speed" TT mat. Initial reaction is a "Big smile" on my face ... I like it! :D

Hope to see you when you're in Manila!

BenC

PS. I guess Grant must have been overwhelmed by Jo Ki's setup. He probably still is recovering from that experience. Let's just wait for his blow by blow account of that experience. :wink:
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Postby ichabod » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:29 pm

Between two architects, there's a lot more in common, so they must have both boozed-up (instead of boost) their listening and forgot about us waiting.

The other thing I really want is to hear from Grant as a user of the ESL 57s how Jo Ki's system would compare. So I'm banking on two things from him; his ears on Jo's LS con AB1s; how it compares to the many set-ups back home with AB1s, room and probably vibration tweaks that we haven't known (these little trade secrets you know that Jo mentions at times) and done yet. And then how a nicely set-up system as Jo's will compare with his 57s. I like to hear anything "anal" this time if only to know if we are missing another half of the LS sound too.

Yup, when I'm in Manila, I sure wanna go and visit you to listen andlearn something from your addicting set-up.

Best,

James
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Postby mozilla » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:24 am

KL Correspondent reporting for duty. Will post pics in a while.....
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