Odaey's LS3/5As

Postby odaey » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:00 pm

CCC wrote:
odaey wrote:Price of rogers ls3/5a 15 ohm gold tag in very good condition and sound is
75k
AB-1 subwoofer walnut in very good condition is 38k

for additional pics of AB-1, Dyna MK 2, Ls3/5a and audible illusions full function preamp. check below.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/90889303@N00/



wow! while mortals like me only wish for a pair of AB1s, I see 3 sets in your photos. :)

Have you ever tried them with your harbeths? May I solicit your observations :)


Hi CCC,

Yes, i do try them once in a while w/ the ab-1's. Though we are expected believe that they should sound the same, once you see the insides then you get to understand the small differences in sound. From the Bi-wire specimens that i have the Rogers seems to be the most mellow but it is also the most particular with regards to cabling. Even the links in the binding post would be a big factor and the configuration in the attachment to the binding post. My spendor would sound in-between the rogers and Harbeth. The Harbeth being more revealing across the entire freqs. It would be very hard to generalize the character of each brand since variations in the specimens do occur counting out the amount of play they recieve.

with permission from the mod i'll post some pics to show the differences.

Image
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Postby odaey » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:11 pm

As you can see the spendor and the harbeth have identical x-overs and the rogers version using a diffrent source for x-over and parts( though i am not sure if its sourced from kef like spendor and harbeth). Their choice of wires is also quite obvious. Rogers uses smaller screws for their baffles. Harbeth does not use black screws. spendor uses the biggest screws among them.
[img][img]http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k13/odaey/ls3-5a059.jpg[/img]

Here's how the Harbeths look w/ AB-1's

Image
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Postby vintage_dog » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:42 pm

odaey, thanks for sharing...

which one is your favorite?

:)
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Postby odaey » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:55 pm

Hi, gud a.m.

At the moment a 15 ohm rogers seems to catch my attention. It has an unusual bloom compared to the others. This is what we'll be hearing soon. As like what you said i don't mind my world being colored.

With regards to these harbeths, it's the one in teak (also the oldest among them). Must be the ten year break-in.
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Postby cia » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:25 am

Very nice collection. How many LS35As do you have?
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Postby vintage_dog » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:38 am

odaey wrote:Hi, gud a.m.

At the moment a 15 ohm rogers seems to catch my attention. It has an unusual bloom compared to the others. This is what we'll be hearing soon. As like what you said i don't mind my world being colored.

With regards to these harbeths, it's the one in teak (also the oldest among them). Must be the ten year break-in.


ok, let's set a date. this might as well be the 2nd WS LS3/5A "shoot-out"! we can invite other LS3 enthusiasts over here at my place...

last time we had an LS35A session was over 3.5 years ago:

http://wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70&start=0
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Postby odaey » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:22 am

[quote="cia"]Very nice collection. How many LS35As do you have?[/quote


Hi Cia, Thanks for the complement.


Used to have 11 at one time but sold 2 already. Still deciding w/c one to let go next. Trying to limit myself to the 3 brands that produced both monowire and Bi-wire versions(rogers,spendor and harbeth) and trim it down to 6.
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Postby mozilla » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:39 am

Nice collection Odaey!
Would like to hearthem one of these days.


========================

Just some trivia on the LS3/5A xovers & Rogers badging for those planning to get into this cult following.

The xovers do not reflect brand designs but were modified from time to time basically because of variances in the KEF drivers, such as the bextreme material.

Remember that the BBC licensed the manufacture of LS3/5A's based on their specs. The only brand I know that got away with "improving" the LS3/5A on their own was Spendor who, w/ the BBC's permission, used better copper for the coils. Spendor also did not rely on KEF's matching of the drivers but matched the drivers themselves to very tight tolerances.

Going back to the differences in the xover...

The bextreme producers changed the compositions w/o notifying KEF which they considered a small-time user. The auto industry at the time was using several tons of bextreme a week vs. KEF's minimal orders.

The original FL6/23 xover for the SP1003 and SP1032 drivers were modified to compensate for changes in the driver's characteristics. For example, the capacitor C5's and resitor R2's values were changed several times to compensate for this.

The T27 tweeter's response also changed so C2 was also adjusted to compensate.

Checking the values of these components can help one date his LS3/5A. here are some recorded changes to the C5 Values:
Original circa 1974 - 6.2uF
1980 - 8.3uF
1982 - 10uF

=======
Rogers Tags:

There are several Rogers tags indicating production dates since the original 1974 license, the most collectible of these is the gold tag w/c came before the so-called white bellies.

The early & mid black tags came. Then the later black tags with the white bellies in about 1977. These were the times when the xover changes were more frequent.

The white tags came in the early 1980's followed by the tag in silver cut out letters w/c lasted til the 90's. The 50th anniv versions had cut out gold tags.

Some indicative serial numbers are:

Gold badge
Black badge (early 6,xxx)
Black badge (late 16,xxx)
Plastic badge 15 ohm (late white belly 29,xxx)
Plastic badge pseudo-15 ohm single-wired (321,xxx)
Plastic badge 11 ohm bi-wireable (47,xxx)
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Postby ichabod » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:34 am

Valuable info one can't do without if only to compare various manufacturers' x'overs. I once read Jo Ki praising spendor for their strict adherence to parts selection and matching of drivers as well as their tight strict tolerances on x'over but the bottom line is "which" LS would one prefer? Ken Kessler of "What Hifi" says it's unpredictable!

Which leads us all to the shoot-out VD is proposing. I'd love to be there if only for this! Odaey, how fortuitous that I was asking you the same question in my pm to you 30 minutes ago!
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Postby odaey » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:20 pm

Moz, Thanks for the wealth of info you have there. Thats why as far as the 11 ohm x-overs were concerned, most of the 11 ohm units that passed thru my hands had them sourced from kef complete with serial nos. and brand on the pcb. Got me wondering whether the last few units of rogers 11 ohm x-over were built in house or sourced elsewhere (of course of the same bbc specs). The rogers x-over above is exactly the same as the Classic LE.

I happen to have 3 versions of the 15 ohm x-overs, 2 from rogers and one from spendor. The spendors 15 ohm version is quite easy to distinguish even compared to audiomasters or falcons version. but dont expect me to be able to read the layout or values , (wala ako alam dyan :oops: ). Anywy as you said changes were made to compensate for changes as the yrs went on, quite interesting to see the evolution of the looks alone.

Anyone seen the stirling 11 ohm x-over version? I have some pics of their superspec x-over, though not sure if it's the same one thats installed in their reference series.
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Postby odaey » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:51 pm

ichabod wrote:Valuable info one can't do without if only to compare various manufacturers' x'overs. I once read Jo Ki praising spendor for their strict adherence to parts selection and matching of drivers as well as their tight strict tolerances on x'over but the bottom line is "which" LS would one prefer? Ken Kessler of "What Hifi" says it's unpredictable!

Which leads us all to the shoot-out VD is proposing. I'd love to be there if only for this! Odaey, how fortuitous that I was asking you the same question in my pm to you 30 minutes ago!


It feels like a father picking a favorite among his children, seems unfair to give a pick. Instead i recognize the character of each unit then maximize the set-up to suit the character of that model and declare it Ls of the month. It's like speaker rolling.
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Postby mozilla » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:12 am

That's the same thing Jo Ki does. Although they are theoretically supposed to sound identical, each LS3/5A has a certain characteristic that suits a certain type of music and moods.

Jo also exhibited several pairs in the KLAV show to highlight the differences between the LS3/5A's.

His personal favorites are (unedited quote from Jo):

Rogers 50LE
50LE is listed here for its abilities in its balance in 3
bandwidths - low, mid and heights. Its abilities in producing an
overall cohesive musical landscape in a prestine state is the best
sounding LS3/5A I have. Whenever it is to be run back-to-back
against a batch, 50LE would make one wants to stopped there and let
the music bath you. The midrange is smooth and liquid.

Rogers Black Tag & KEF Piano Black
The magic of Rogers Black Tag lies in the midrange and bass, and its
abilities to resolute the minute details, projecting the
necessity 'rawness' in the midrange so readily makes music more
expressive and articulate. But it can't be driven too loud. OTOH,
KEF can be pushed loud. Although KEF do not has Rogers' abilities in
midrange, it is nor far off. The way KEF project midrange is quite
similar to Black Tag proportionately, so they both assume equal best.

Richard Allan & Chartwell
RA is remarkable in many ways that the world is not ready to accept
it unfortunately. RA has an amazing ability to maintain the
traditional LS3/5A sound and yet it is 'modern' with high resolution
to all 3 bandwidths like modern good sounding speakers. It has the
abilities to produce inner details of music without making it less
musical. If I were to recommend a newbie into LS3/5A and just for
one pair for life, I would recommend RA for sure! It is not hard to
know why as the construction of its cabinet is second to none, best
engineered LS3/5A! Chartwell is an amazing open sounding LS3/5A, it
has the abilities to create good ambience, 'air' that filled every
coners of the room, very transparent yet retain the organic
structure of sound. By comparison, RA has some of that characters
but only lesser. In years to come, when RA run in better, I am sure
it could sound like Chartwell. Already there are many areas that RA
could do that Chartwell could not, like the definition to project
darker space between instruments, rise and fall extensions - dynamic
stability.

Of the above, it is very hard to pick the best of the best as there
are many other emotional attachment comes into play for me that
clouds me decision, so I can't pick any pair out of the pack.
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Postby ichabod » Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:22 am

Who's to argue with Jo Ki's take on his LS 3/5As. He's got 18 pairs on his belt, and knows pretty well what he's telling us. Quite frankly, I can see his point very clearly on those Rogers after we compared spendors, Kef Piano, and the Pseudo 15 ohmer Rogers under the same gear set-up we heard. I thought the Rogers did superbly on vocals where it was the most open and naturally "neutral."
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Postby mozilla » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:56 am

Here's a pic of Ace Hayashi's Rogers Classic 50 LE (50th anniv Limited Ed.)

Image
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Postby ichabod » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:09 pm

What beauty! As I recall, it was pointed out in the KK shoot-out that heavier cabs can make some difference to the sound. The BBC 001-002 LS were heavier as reported and had a screwed "loosy" back.
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Postby odaey » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:44 pm

ichabod wrote:Who's to argue with Jo Ki's take on his LS 3/5As. He's got 18 pairs on his belt, and knows pretty well what he's telling us. Quite frankly, I can see his point very clearly on those Rogers after we compared spendors, Kef Piano, and the Pseudo 15 ohmer Rogers under the same gear set-up we heard. I thought the Rogers did superbly on vocals where it was the most open and naturally "neutral."


I have a pseudo 15 ohmer myself, sounds good . They really should be considered rogers first 11ohm units. I was thinking They must have had the first crack in selecting the bbc spec. approved 1228's.

Moz, I could look at that pic all day. Do you have any info on what type of security or surveilance system the owner has, what room the speakers are located in and where the alarm sensors are? :roll:


The rogers LE together with the kef piano black are the two lacquerd versions w/c should technically be out of BBC spec because of cabinet treatment But Who cares when they sound this good.
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Postby ichabod » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:35 am

I've seen a Rogers ad on this lacquered model and the photography was magazine ad quality to make one tongue tied! I've also seen a spendor in lacquer finish where I bought mine and it was just plain gorgeous. I would have gotten it instead of the rosewood but it had some body issues.

BenC has the Rogers LE version as well which was included in the first LS 3/5A shoot-out of 3 years ago.
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Postby ichabod » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:42 am

Tubedude, welcome to the LS club of music lovers! Those Harbeths rank highest amongst different LSs in the KK shoot-out! Congrats on your undying confidence for these speakers. They're indeed closest to the Quad (889?) you once had!
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Postby CCC » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:46 am

odaey wrote:
CCC wrote:
odaey wrote:Price of rogers ls3/5a 15 ohm gold tag in very good condition and sound is
75k
AB-1 subwoofer walnut in very good condition is 38k

for additional pics of AB-1, Dyna MK 2, Ls3/5a and audible illusions full function preamp. check below.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/90889303@N00/



wow! while mortals like me only wish for a pair of AB1s, I see 3 sets in your photos. :)

Have you ever tried them with your harbeths? May I solicit your observations :)


Hi CCC,

Yes, i do try them once in a while w/ the ab-1's. Though we are expected believe that they should sound the same, once you see the insides then you get to understand the small differences in sound. From the Bi-wire specimens that i have the Rogers seems to be the most mellow but it is also the most particular with regards to cabling. Even the links in the binding post would be a big factor and the configuration in the attachment to the binding post. My spendor would sound in-between the rogers and Harbeth. The Harbeth being more revealing across the entire freqs. It would be very hard to generalize the character of each brand since variations in the specimens do occur counting out the amount of play they recieve.

with permission from the mod i'll post some pics to show the differences.

Image



Thanks for your indulgence. It was most revealing indeed. :)
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Postby Tubedude » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:10 pm

ichabod wrote:Tubedude, welcome to the LS club of music lovers! Those Harbeths rank highest amongst different LSs in the KK shoot-out! Congrats on your undying confidence for these speakers. They're indeed closest to the Quad (889?) you once had!


Thank you, Sir Ichabod! And to our WS LS3/5A moderator and members.
It became clear after hearing your speakers that the LS3/5A is very special. I also thank you for your support and advice during my search.
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