MUST READ: keeping prices of LPs "reasonable"

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MUST READ: keeping prices of LPs "reasonable"

Postby vintage_dog » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:57 am

a few folks have called my attention on how prices of LPs sold locally here at the marketplace have been increasing consistently and "unreasonably". some comments/questions i've heard:

1. why have prices almost doubled/tripled on some standard LPs?
2. is there a cartel among LP sellers?

3. how can we get more reasonably priced LPs to members?


well, you guys answer those questions for me particularly #1 and 2. but, here are some ideas we may opt to implement for #3:

1. group-buy from USA and sell LPs locally at cost among members. buyers have to cover extra expenses of course. this will be managed by volunteer WS members.

2. impose fees (payable to WS) for LPs sold at WS beyond a certain amount. for example, for imported LPs sold over p250-500, sellers pay 10%, p501-1000 at 20%, over p1000 pay 30% to WS.
of course, folks can always trade offline and that's fine. these fees only apply for LPs posted here for sale.

3. "sharks thrive because there are always uninformed victims". check prices from other sources. one easy way is ebay, and impute shipping costs plus a certain sellers "fee". patronize sellers who continue to offer "reasonably-priced" LPs and give feedback to sellers who don't. i've seen some supposedly rare and used (probably re-ssued) LPs at 300% of sealed copies sold at on-line stores. :roll:

other ideas? may we hear from both sellers and buyers?
Last edited by vintage_dog on Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MUST READ: keeping prices of LPs sold locally "reas

Postby kabubi » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:09 pm

vintage_dog wrote:2. impose fees (payable to WS) for LPs sold at WS beyond a certain amount. for example, for imported LPs sold over p250-500, sellers pay 10%, p501-1000 at 20%, over p1000 pay 30% to WS.
of course, folks can always trade offline and that's fine. these fees only apply for LPs posted here for sale.

other ideas? may we hear from both sellers and buyers?


thanx for the concern, Francis. i have a couple of questions, if you don't mind:

1) di kaya ipasa lang ng mga sellers ang imposed fees sa mga gurame at pating na bibili ng plaka? para bang tax ng gobyerno na pinapasa din ng manufacturers sa consumers.

2) will the directive affect only records but not CDs, audio or non-audio equipment?

just my 2 cents.
salamat.
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Postby vintage_dog » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:15 pm

yes, that's possible.

for now it applies to LPs.

any ideas to address concern?
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Postby vintage_dog » Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:48 pm

am working on something with my previous contacts in the USA to source out standard LPs. if i'm successful, i will bring them in bulk and sell them at close to cost plus some "fees" to fund WS. most standard LPs should cost about p100-150 only. the original pressings (not re-issues) of classics by Jobim, Ella, Miles Davis, Contrane, Gilberto, Bill Evans, are available $4.99-9.99 in VG+ to NM condition.

let me know by PM only on the list of artists you want.
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Postby arnoldc » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:18 pm

The buyers also has to discipline themselves. Ako I wouldn't lie that I bought over 1K LPs from Pican, Jadis, etc.

All my hard to find rock I got from Manny Claraval and I paid P750 for those. Kasi gusto ko, at wala akong makita. Not anybody can buy from ebay, much less get a good deal. I'm sure you are an ebay expert, and I would welcome the idea of "somebody" buying it, which will cost him money, duties and taxes and give this at cost to the wiredstate member. That will be great!

The last time I was looking for a rock LP I wanted to have, and saw one at ebay for 9.99. That's roughly 500, and I pay shipping pa, and pay tax pa at the post office (if more than 3 LPs sa MCPO), and worse baka di dumating, sakit lang sa ulo, and finally ala akong credit card valid for ebay. So for me, paying Manny P750 is a "good deal" dahil alam ko pang NM talaga if not M.

For me, I will determine how much I will pay for a locally available LP.

Kung gusto nyo ng sigurado, at walang ebay-ebay, try Music Direct. Look for Bes Nievera (pinsan ni Martin, sana andun pa sya) and I'm sure you'll get great customer service.

GEMM is also ridiculously expensive. I bought from Audiogon once, ok naman.

If you're going to bring them in in bulk and don't have a "good" broker, baka kawawa yung magpapasok.

I hope this materializes and become feasible.
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Postby manilaman » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:55 pm

Suggestion, since we're at it, why not have the vendors "donate" an LP that they do not use for every 5 records they sell through WS. These LP's are posted on a "sticky" forum, which can be up for bidding.

It may be better than giving cash, as we do not want the "value" & amount to be an issue, or cloud the passion for the hobby. You can apply this as well for Cd's. Or if equipment is sold, maybe more Lp's or cd's that remain unused can be donated. I think the moderators can give a fair trade value for this suggestion. I agree that vinyl has become expensive compared to 5-7 years ago. Even garage sale vendors seem to have picked up high valuation when dumping their old records.

If you are a regular poster (ie. > 100 posts) at WS, maybe you get first crack at the WS donated stock through the announcement board.

Just my two cents, don't ask me to explain the equation. :lol: :lol:
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Postby Henley » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:27 am

if there are people buying, then people will surely be selling :?

i don't blame the buyers, it's an addiction...

so save the user, jail the pusher :lol: - joke lang
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Postby ihatejazz » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:38 am

As both a buyer and seller I kinda know market prices of most LPs being sold. I find it very hard to find original issue jazz LPs to be in the $10 range with the above mentioned artists specially Miles, Trane, Bill Evans. If we have our versions of piranhas can you imagine the gigantic vultures such as the Japanese, Taiwanese, Koreans from Asia. The French, Germans, Italians from Europe practically gulp up the most collectible ones. What is left for me when my make my treks are measly leftovers! Yet prices escalate, too. I not too long ago bought an original KOB 6-eye stereo in ? for $85 which is a steal. Dave Brubeck's Time Out 1st pressing (you have to know how it looks) for $50 in NM-. Everybody Digs Bill Evans in deep groove Prestige for $60. Try to find an original copy of Trane and Hartman. I don't a copy to date but an original NM- orange/black Impulse in stereo will easily fetch $60. If you go by Ebay standards which most sellers today base their prices from, prices of MoFi's have skyrocketed easily 5x-10x. Yet people are taking the plunge.

Ironic as it is, each time I come home after a catch, it is those highly priced ones go the fastest and to think most of my buyers are not WS members. It also holds true to other sellers here at WS. What I have left over are the common ones that sell for P200-500 here at WS.

What most people do not realize is the difficulty in buying LPs in a strange country in bulk. One has to pay for airfare, hotels, car rental, gas, food and driving 100 miles just to buy a handful. I consider this a loss in terms of profitabilty lost. Imagine you lose a whole day of a 2 week trip. Not to mention you have to go through each and every LP in the stash to make sure it is in a good condition to resell. Hauling, packing and shipping. Has any of you ever try to lift a box with 200 LPs? How about trying to move 10 boxes with 200 LPs each? In good ol USA we don't have our usual goons you order around to carry this, to move that, etc. Mortalities? yes! I go thru a lot of them. Even buying from Ebay doesn't exempt you from this. We sell it here only for our buyers to reject it because there were scuffs created by inner sleeves.

In gist, I oftentimes feel irated if people try to jew me down on the LPs I sell because all the hard work I put in just to buy the LPs. Not that I overprice the stuff I sell but I base prices on the condition and rarity of the LP. Most of you newbies here at WS should learn to come to terms with sellers. For example, I have an LP in mint which I would sell for say P500 and someone has the same in mint condition for P200 then go ahead and buy it. What if the seller has the same LP but in poorer condition at P200? It is all up to you, the buyer.
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Postby vintage_dog » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:46 am

ooops, i opened a can of worms. let me clarify my point lest i be misunderstood:

price is determined by rarity, collectibility, grade/quality, perceived value of the buyer on LPs. i still continue to buy LPs in the over $100 range. i have a few rare LPs i can never part for over $500, because that's probably how much they cost to replace. so, this is NOT about those LPs. these LPs are not even in the pages here. they are treated as jewels and traded among friends. one does not see a Kornet here in the pages, do you? so guys, don't ask me about getting those rare LPs which is NOT the subject of this thread. you should know me better.

this thread is primarily directed to call attention to sellers and buyers of LPs (here at the WS marketplace) who are generally not in this category...the standards, the re-issues, and even the original pressings that can be sourced for a song but marketed, pushed and priced unreasonably high. i've seen far too common LPs at this site previously offered at 100-200 now to 500-800 and some over 1000-2000. that's what this is all about.

sorry, if this thread sounded controvertial. it's meant to be.

george, good heads-up on the difficulties of bringing in LPs in bulk. don't know yet if we'll pursue that, but am in contact with a trader in the USA. may/may not push through. so, whether 100 or 200 per box or just 20 is the least of my worry now. am not also going to do it myself...just want to bring-in some good stuff for people to enjoy. :D isn't this what WS is all about?

so george, any ideas to share on the original questions i asked? i don't think you've answered them yet my friend. :D
1. why have prices almost doubled/tripled on some standard LPs?
2. is there a cartel among LP sellers?
3. how can we get more reasonably priced LPs to members?
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Postby vintage_dog » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:47 am

a few verbal or texted or PMed comments i've received so far:

1. why have prices almost doubled/tripled on some standard LPs?
- price of oil? duhhh!
- buyers don't have a clue kasi
- supply-demand lang yan
- misrepresentation (by seller)
- greed

2. is there a cartel among LP sellers?
- naguusap usap yan
- don't think so

3. how can we get more reasonably priced LPs to members?
- LP swap
- more sellers (competition)
- group buy
- WS does it for members
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Postby ihatejazz » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:57 am

vintage_dog wrote:.


george, good heads-up on the difficulties of bringing in LPs in bulk. don't know yet if we'll pursue that, but am in contact with a trader in the USA. may/may not push through. so, whether 100 or 200 per box or just 20 is the least of my worry now. am not also going to do it myself...just want to bring-in some good stuff for people to enjoy. :D isn't this what WS is all about?

so george, any ideas to share on the original questions i asked? i don't think you've answered them yet my friend. :D
1. why have prices almost doubled/tripled on some standard LPs?
2. is there a cartel among LP sellers?
3. how can we get more reasonably priced LPs to members?


Francis,
Please let me know if and when you plan to make a trip to the U.S. Sama tayo. It will be nice may ka split ng bill and driving!! :lol: Lets go LP hunting. Its a lot of fun!

To answer your questions:

1. Its the law of supply and demand. Generally speaking the resurgence of analog in the industry has stirred this phenomenon. In the past analog was reduced to the older set but now the younger generation in getting into the medium thus padami ang kaagaw. People who have bought are not letting go and supply of better quality LPs are geting scarce thus price hike.

2. I doubt if there is a cartel among sellers. BTW, are you referring to WS sellers?

3. I feel the prices sold by the regular sellers are reasonable enough. I normally sell higher than most of them as I source them one by one myself.

To Quote you: impose fees (payable to WS) for LPs sold at WS beyond a certain amount. for example, for imported LPs sold over p250-500, sellers pay 10%, p501-1000 at 20%, over p1000 pay 30% to WS.
of course, folks can always trade offline and that's fine. these fees only apply for LPs posted here for sale.

Francis,

I am in favor of the above!!! I feel all of us who have somehow one way or another benefitted from WS should repay. It is a win win situation. I personally will state I HAVE BENEFITTED FROM WIREDSTATE. Where would audio in the Philippines be without WiredState!!
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Postby vintage_dog » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:22 pm

that would be fun...the sidetrips i make to the usa are usally in the west coast...last time was to visit my collector friend of vintage gear who has some 3000 pieces. he has his collection in what used to be a church!

anyway, back to LPs let's see what we can do...

yes, the thread is primarily directed to LPs posted here at marketplace forums. i don't care about what happens outside or those sold in homes, shops, by email, etc. :D

i understand too the local marketplace has grown and more buyers vie for same LPs everyone else want...so necessarily prices would reflect that...so having some more sellers is good too.

the proposal on fees is unpopular from what i gather and a hassle to administer. anyway, let me think about it some more but most likely we'll leave things as they are and let the market forces come to play. the LPs for sale lists are now being shared by PM and email anyway, and that's fine.

instead, am now thinking about opening a "collectible thread" for folks to post items for sale without a posted price and buyers-sellers transact offline or via PM/text/call. that's the thing we can collect a modest fee on.
what do you think?
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Postby troporobo » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:42 pm

My explanation for prices is simply supply and demand - I have sometimes paid far above "eBay value" for LPs locally just because I know I won't get another chance at a particular title anytime soon. But I am cutting way back on that practice now. It really can't be justified

As for buying in bulk, it would not be too hard to arrange with a cooperative friend or relative in the US. Ordering from Acoustic Sounds, MusicDirect, or Elusive Disc is straightforward. Having them delivered to a US address is cheap. Then sending a balikbayan box to RP costs about $60-$80, or only about $1-2 per LP. As long as they are packed OK its not a problem. I have bought quite a few of the OJC titles (at only $10!!!) this way. The question is, who's got one of those cooperative connections?

And to anticipate the obvious question, my brother is getting a little fed up with me after several orders and is not likely to act as our middleman :cry:
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Postby mandym » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:02 pm

"sharks thrive because there are always uninformed victims"

Maybe we can make it so that there will be less uninformed victims.

Is it possible to have a separate thread on used record prices, sort of a blue book so buyers can get an idea of what they should pay for records. Right now WS has voluminous data on what records go for what prices but it has to be compiled.

Contributors can then add on to the listing.

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Postby ihatejazz » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:29 pm

troporobo wrote: The question is, who's got one of those cooperative connections?


My son was helping me scout around LPs in the D.C. area. He was able to lead me to a seller with 1000pcs for $195. We were able to haggle and ended up paying $155. I was lucky to pick out about 40pcs. My son donated the 960pcs to the Salvation Army. :)
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Postby JackD201 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:50 pm

Finding, Picking, Sorting, Visual Grading, Play Grading, carrying/transporting, and selling LPs is a LOT of hard work. My hats off to all the sellers out there.

I believe hard work should be rewarded and we should allow them to enjoy the fruits of their labor HOWEVER there is always room for abuse or charlatanism in any business endeavor.

In other words BUYERS BEWARE nga. Kung lokohin ka ng seller get your money back and huwag mo na lang balikan. We should let them set their prices though.

My suggestion is to have a thread with links to the various online resources so we can educate ourselves on the going rates of our favorite recordings. This way we can gauge for ourselves wether or not we want to pay the price asked or not.

For me simple lang naman if the added expense above the baseline is comensurate with the labor and risk factors (of buying from an unknown source on e-bay) I will pay that slight premium. If not sorry na lang.
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Postby ihatejazz » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:00 pm

What I would see is the Buy and Sell section, may it be software, hardware, non-audio be placed in another division or section of the forum. It makes me irate when I wake up in the morning to see 9 of 10 topics in the headlines are in the buy and sell, specially LPs. When you buy the Sunday issue of the Manila Bulletin you will never find the Classified Ads in any headline :twisted:
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Postby vintage_dog » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:08 pm

ihatejazz wrote:What I would see is the Buy and Sell section, may it be software, hardware, non-audio be placed in another division or section of the forum. It makes me irate when I wake up in the morning to see 9 of 10 topics in the headlines are in the buy and sell, specially LPs. When you buy the Sunday issue of the Manila Bulletin you will never find the Classified Ads in any headline :twisted:


i know what you mean. partly, the Admins' fault :D . there is a way to handle the buy/sell section better, but unfortunately our technical admin is out of commission :cry: we need to overhaul the site somehow and have better housekeeping guidelines...
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Postby ihatejazz » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:02 pm

vintage_dog wrote:
ihatejazz wrote:What I would see is the Buy and Sell section, may it be software, hardware, non-audio be placed in another division or section of the forum. It makes me irate when I wake up in the morning to see 9 of 10 topics in the headlines are in the buy and sell, specially LPs. When you buy the Sunday issue of the Manila Bulletin you will never find the Classified Ads in any headline :twisted:


i know what you mean. partly, the Admins' fault :D . there is a way to handle the buy/sell section better, but unfortunately our technical admin is out of commission :cry: we need to overhaul the site somehow and have better housekeeping guidelines...


Yehey! :lol:
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Postby vintage_dog » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:07 pm

this thread will be locked soon.

suggestions received so far:

- group buy of known favorites

- regular information sharing on LP prices/trends, good buys

- encourage more sellers/competition

- recognize power sellers who consistently provide excellent service and value for the analog lover

- let it be...let market forces take a hand in the pricing of LPs

additionally, i will create a separate trading forum for "LP collectibles" subject to fees. funds will be used to support wiredstate.
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