Lets go Retro

For Vinyl and Record lovers: turntables, cartridges, etc.

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Lets go Retro

Postby m_shoe_maker » Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:09 pm

For the retro boys....... :roll: which do you prefer :?:

Garrard :roll:

or

Thorens :roll:

Why :?:
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Postby Quiel » Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:40 pm

ako Garrard... kasi yan lg meron ako :lol: ... poor me, haven't see an Thorens btw :cry: ....
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Postby ihatejazz » Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:08 pm

I'm going all the way. Anybody selling a mint grammophone? I'm serious.
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:11 pm

I've also been looking for a Victorola. :) I saw one at the antique shop at Shangrila selling for P35T. :( it was only the small version. :(

Now that is indeed retro. :D
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Re: Lets go Retro

Postby setup1 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:38 am

*For the retro boys....... which do you prefer :?:
Garrard or Thorens Why ?

They are in the same league IMHO. If I'm forced to split hairs, the 301 is a tiny bit brighter while the TD124 is a bit on the darker side. But the tonearm/cartridge interface can even out the difference.

A lot more TD124s were imported into the USA than 301s that's why 301s tend to command higher prices here whereas in the UK., it's the opposite.

Nonong [setup4] mounted his Air Tangent on a TD124 after he sold his VPI TNT Jr. Nonong, care to comment on that experience? BTW, where is that picture you showed me years ago? Please send me a scan when you're not busy, it really looked cool - retro/hi-tech!

Regards,

Joseph
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Postby setup1 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:57 am

*]I've also been looking for a Victorola. :) I saw one at the antique shop at Shangrila selling for P35T. :( it was only the small version. :(
Now that is indeed retro.

Those Victrolas are really cool! I have a small table top model that I play for friends for kicks and they are usually surprised as to how natural the sound is. I recently acquired a mid size console that needs work [another DIY project, time to move on from building SET amps....he he he].

The bigger the horn, the greater the bass response. I've heard a 78 rpm Artie Shaw/Cole Porter arrangement playing through a carefully restored console type [as big as a small refrigerator] Victrola with an Orthophonic pick-up arm [tin foil diaphragm instead of mylar, which produces slightly more volume] and it sounded very 'lifelike' within its useable 100-6000 cycles frequency response. I guess this is how they did it during parties in the 20s and 30s if a big band was not within budget or unavailable.

Joseph
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Postby red76 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:44 pm

Joseph is da man...

He has both so he is the best dude to listen to when it comes to classic vintage vinyl playback. The only real advantage of the Garrard 301 (grease bearing or not) and 401 over the TD-124 is it goes up to the correct speed faster since it is pure rim drive. My early 124 takes about 10 min. tops, this is when in constant play and fully lubed + adjusted.

BTW, one of the older decks I lust for are the studio EMT's either the early rim drives 927- 930 (idler wheel) or the latter DD's, they're just too pricey for me. There are only 2 makers of modern idler wheel decks these days, one is the custom Rolf Kelch Reference from Germany (he was part of Thorens GMBH) and the "take no prisoners" Teragaki Analog Renaissance (earlier were Seiko Epson comissioned) models from Japan. I have links/pics for these but am too lazy to find 'em in my linklist.. Maybe later if someone is interested in seeing 'em :P

On another note I'd like to say congrats to JE. His 300B DELUXE design was featured in the craftsman room with a matching chassis Foreplay preamp at the VSAC (I forgot who made it.)

Pic from 6 Moons website:

ImageImageImage
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Re: Lets go Retro

Postby m_shoe_maker » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:59 pm

setup1 wrote:Nonong [setup4] mounted his Air Tangent on a TD124 after he sold his VPI TNT Jr. Nonong, care to comment on that experience? BTW, where is that picture you showed me years ago? Please send me a scan when you're not busy, it really looked cool - retro/hi-tech!


An Air Tangent on a TD124 :?: Wow :!: :) Talk about retro combined with hi-tech. :)

Was the suspension of that TD124 beefed-up :?: Wondering if the stock suspension was able to carry that arm. :roll:
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Postby red76 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:08 pm

Was the suspension of that TD124 beefed-up Wondering if the stock suspension was able to carry that arm.


The TD124 only has rubber mushrooms as "suspensions" so essentially it is NOT a floating deck with springs ala AR or latter Thorens or pushed upwards like Oracle, some have replaced the mushrroms with diy shaped wooden ones....
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:05 pm

red76 wrote:
Was the suspension of that TD124 beefed-up Wondering if the stock suspension was able to carry that arm.


The TD124 only has rubber mushrooms as "suspensions" so essentially it is NOT a floating deck with springs ala AR or latter Thorens or pushed upwards like Oracle, some have replaced the mushrroms with diy shaped wooden ones....


Now I understand. :) In that case, pwedeng-pwede :!: :)
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Re: Lets go Retro

Postby setup1 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:07 pm

*An Air Tangent on a TD124 :?: Wow :!: :) Talk about retro combined with hi-tech. :)

OK here we go, Nonong sent me the jpeg and I uploaded it on this link:

http://members.myactv.net/~je410/TD124-AT10B.jpg


*The only real advantage of the Garrard 301 (grease bearing or not) and 401 over the TD-124 is it goes up to the correct speed faster since it is pure rim drive. My early 124 takes about 10 min. tops, this is when in constant play and fully lubed + adjusted.

Hi red76,

I agree about your comments on the 301/401 however 10 mins. seem to be too long for a TD124's speed to stabilize, check the link below for tips on how to tweak it, especially the alignment of the idler to the pulley and also the eddy current brake. If you've done all the required adjustment, perhaps the belt is worn out or need a bit of talcum powder. You might also want to check your AC line and make sure it's exactly 120 or 240VAC.. Low voltage reduces torque and can affect the ability of the platter to get up to speed quickly.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rabruil/td124page.html

In my experience with TD124s, the idler wheel never need replacement but I've had to replace 2 belts. Also, the rubber mushrooms are not critical if the turntable is mounted on a heavy plinth. I only have a set of 4 that are intact and I don't use them [keeping it for posterity] the rest were deteriorated. My TD124s get up to speed in 2 mins. or so even if it hasn't been turned on for a week or more.

Regards,

Joseph
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Postby setup4 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:22 pm

as far as i can remember, the TD124 sounded sweeter than the 301. as setup1 mentioned, overall balance can be tuned by your choice of cartridge and tonearm.

the TNT Jr. was still with me when i mounted my Air Tangent 10B to my TD124 so i was to compare the 2 turntables toe to toe. same cartridge, arm, preamp, amp and speakers.
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Postby setup1 » Sat Oct 11, 2003 12:13 am

*On another note I'd like to say congrats to JE. His 300B DELUXE design was featured in the craftsman room with a matching chassis Foreplay preamp at the VSAC (I forgot who made it.)[/quote]

BTW, thanks red76! Haven't had a chance to follow the VSAC '03 event.

Regards,

Joseph
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Postby red76 » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:50 am

Hi Joseph,

Yes I've been to Bruil's and Pasini's site before... Everything is in okay adjustment I just need to re-apply talcum at the pulleys and belts. When it comes to torque, it goes up to speed even @ < 2 min someitmes. I only stated 10 min. as TOPS, since the electricity here can be erratic, so the speed varies that I have to turn the 'fine' control 'down' or 'up' a bit for the first few min. after the initial cold startup.... It depends on the day and time of day.. The only advice Bruil gave that I didn't follow is the change of power cord, the stock power cord on mine is the gray one with molded rubberized plugs that looks sturdy enuff, the others I've seen are brown colored with the cheapo looking white snap-on plugs....

The voltage here is quite high actually, never goes below 230V and even reaches 250V at certain times at early morning. Current fluctuations and not just voltage affect fine motor speed stability too right, as it cannot bee seen or measured via AC voltmeters? AVR's don't actually make much of a difference if any in fine speed IME ...

I've also replaced the leaky cap which "controls" the switch to the motor. Damn hard to solder in that small space.

Can you share what lube you've tried to the motor and and bearings? My friend's Mk.2 with cast iron platter (he has the early Mk.2) spins dead silent even when I put my ears near the solid plinth.. In my '61 deck you can still hear the motor when you "listen" very closely at the deck itself, and only becomes very silent when its been running for quite long, and the chassis quite warm to the touch coz the motor has already warmed up considerably (mine uses a solid hardwood plinth.)

In latter Mk2 versions with aluminum platters there are 6 rubber suspensions for the motor... I'm kinda temtped to add/shoehorn 3 more for mine to make it 6 like in the Mk.2, but that would lose slack in the motor suspension, and end up too rigid... Has anyone tried this and got good resulst?

BTW, there are NOS idler wheel spares and other TD124 parts at Schopper CH. Pricey though.

The best,
red76
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Postby setup1 » Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:19 am

Hi red76,

* Yes I've been to Bruil's and Pasini's site before...

Great!

*The only advice Bruil gave that I didn't follow is the change of power cord, the stock power cord on mine is the gray one

Likewise, I don't replace AC cables unless they're worn out.

*Current fluctuations and not just voltage affect fine motor speed stability too right, as it cannot bee seen or measured via AC voltmeters? AVR's don't actually make much of a difference if any in fine speed IME ...

When I used my TD124 there I had it plugged to an AVR just to keep the speed right on. Minor current fluctuation IME can be controlled by the eddy current brake system.

*Can you share what lube you've tried to the motor and and bearings?

Nothing exotic I use 5W-30 motor oil, leftovers from my Civic..

*My friend's Mk.2 with cast iron platter (he has the early Mk.2) spins dead silent even when I put my ears near the solid plinth.. In my '61 deck you can still hear the motor when you "listen" very closely at the deck itself, and only becomes very silent when its been running for quite long,

IME the models with heavier iron platter are usually quieter too, but I wouldn't worry about slight motor noise in the later versions as long as you don't hear it through your speakers. Supposedly, Thorens reverted to the lighter non magnetic platter because of magnet attraction from the cartridge. I've never encountered this problem though on my MK1 [ivory chassis] using Denon 103, SPU, Grado, FR, MC10 and etc.], but it maybe because I never removed the outer aluminum platter which perhaps serves as a shield?

*and the chassis quite warm to the touch coz the motor has already warmed up considerably (mine uses a solid hardwood plinth.)

This sounds normal after a few hours of use, as long as the area where the motor is located has vent holes underneath the plinth.

*In latter Mk2 versions with aluminum platters there are 6 rubber suspensions for the motor... I'm kinda temtped to add/shoehorn 3 more for mine to make it 6 like in the Mk.2, but that would lose slack in the motor suspension, and end up too rigid... Has anyone tried this and got good resulst?

I didn't know this detail, thanks for pointing it out and yes, I saw that Swiss site selling TD124 parts. Mahal nga!

Incidentally, speaking again from experience, these vintage transcription decks [non-suspended and mounted on heavy plinth] synergize very well with SET/Hi-Efficiency speaker set ups. When I was still using PP EL34/EL84 amps driving LS3/5As or Quad ESLs, I found the sound of my TD124II/MMT/8mx too forward compared to my AR/Merrill [almost all the available mods] FT3/8MZ. However, when I switched to DHTs I found suspended sub chassis t'tables to sound slow and uninvolving. One thing I'm sure about is, these transcription decks have much greater speed stability and authority.

Since 301s/401s/TD124s maybe scarce there, I'd recommend other SET/HE speaker enthusiast to consider older heavy duty Japanese direct drives as alternatives, such as the Technics SP10/SP15, Micro Seik [thread drive models look cool], Kenwood [KD500 comes to mind], Denon and etc....just my 2 centavos.

Regards,

Joseph
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Postby red76 » Sat Oct 11, 2003 12:21 pm

Nothing exotic I use 5W-30 motor oil, leftovers from my Civic..


Hi Joseph,

Thanks for sharing. The only oil I tried is the common 3 in 1 by WD-40 :!: Maybe lacks viscosity that's why it is not as silent as I want it to be when it is not yet warmed up :? I'm cautious in using other 'oils', since I’m not sure of its ingredients and viscosity (synthetic materials?) that may do more harm than good for the motor and bearings. Now I'll take the plunge. I remember to have read Pasini's article on the late SP about Thorens, but I haven't tried the Castrol GTX3 and Mobil D.T.E. he suggested. The main spindle bearing on mine doesn't need any lubing and is spins as smooth as butter.

IME the models with heavier iron platter are usually quieter too, but I wouldn't worry about slight motor noise in the later versions as long as you don't hear it through your speakers. Supposedly, Thorens reverted to the lighter non magnetic platter because of magnet attraction from the cartridge. I've never encountered this problem though on my MK1 [ivory chassis] using Denon 103, SPU, Grado, FR, MC10 and etc.], but it maybe because I never removed the outer aluminum platter which perhaps serves as a shield?


Fortunately there is zero noise transmitted to the speakers, even if I put my ears near 'em, and I have pretty sensitive x-overless speakers. Still I'd like to get it as silent as the my firend's 124 (that guy never told me what oil he uses :roll: .) Funny you mentioned about the magnetic platter .. I have the "Mk1", and it pulls my Benz Ace down the platter a bit even with the aluminum sub-platter on. I only really realized how the "pull" can be obvious when I used a record mat (Platter Matter.) The record mat prevented the pull, acting as a shield. Maybe it had more pull coz the Benz is a nude cartridge and the ones you tried had were encased??? FWIW, the Benz I have is the least hifi sounding of the middle models, easy to set up, plus I got it brand new for a very low price.. Can't find a DL-103D or afford any of those Ortofon SPU's and EMT's. Found out BTW that the Denon DL-103 and EMT's are based on SPU's design...Maybe that's why they share a similar sonic character.

With regards to the motor suspensions, the ones with 6 grommets came with all latter Mk2's that were equipped with the lighter aluminum platter. I THINK the motor 'support shafts' that the grommets attach to are longer in these models. In the 70's the replacement motor was a flywheel type made by Papst, it also required 6 rubber grommets.


Cheers,
red76

Image Ikeda 12" with modified Pierre Clement EB-25 cantileverless cartridge. They shoud'lve painted the gray Mk.2 Ferrari red or royal blue. That particular blue is kinda off....

http://www.analogtubeaudio.de/cartridges/archiv.htm
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:38 pm

setup1 wrote:Nothing exotic I use 5W-30 motor oil, leftovers from my Civic..


He :!: He :!: He :!:

I used Mobil 1 before for my 165 and 166. :)

Feeling Mc Laren. :roll: Wait a minute, dapat Shell...... :) :D
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