outboard subs and interconnects

[XLR_silver]

my bookshelf speakers have very limited low
frequency capacity so i plan to use an outboard
sub (which i already use for my
HT setup) to compensate.

here's my question: will bookshelves + subwoofer combo
ever sound as good as a full range floorstander? the problem with
outboard subs is that placement can be very complicated and
imply the use of long, if not very long interconnects. apart from
long cables, output loss could arise from the internal connections
(conductors) of the sub since it bypasses the connection from the
preamp to the amp (as shown below). do big names like REL, for
example, make sure that internal wiring/conductors are so good
that they can prevent non-negligible output loss?

source--->preamp----->subwoofer---->amp

thanks!

[Audio_Tyro]

Hi XLR_Silver!

I'm very happy to tell you all of your worries and conjectures about subwoofers are untrue; well at least from a REL + bookshelf's perspective. Let me elucidate my point...

1. Contrary to your belief, bookshelf + sub combo is generally easier to place optimally compared to floorstanders. You see, in floorstanders, moving the whole cabinet to find the sweet spot makes prompts you to move all of the drivers (since they're in the same vertical housing)! Sounds like the highest you can achieve is merely a possible compromise for the midrange and bass response. Unlike in the former, you can start by moving the bookshelves first to find the best midhi presentation. Once you've found it, you may proceed by moving the subwoofer to all possible locations within the room to find the perfect bass performance. Ergo, Perfect location for the midhi presentation coupled with a perfect location of bass (for the sub) equates to perfect overall performance! Afterall, listening to the complete music spectrum that the human ear is capable of hearing (20,000Hz down to 20Hz) is truly of orgasmic proportions!

2. REL does not require you costly interconnects. Instead it has a pre-supplied speaker cable (10 meters) which you can cut to desired length once you have both found the "best" location and the sub reached full break in status.

3. To get the fastest & most tunefull bass, REL subs are best connected via speaker level connection (hence from the power amplifier's Left/Right speaker outputs). Therefore, it can be connected to ALL kinds of amplifers; unlike some other good subs (like the M&K MX-350 or MX-5000THX) which can only be connected via line level (from the preamp); big problem if you only have an integrated amplifier.

If you still doubt this theory, try to contact these fellow Pinoydiophiles and audition their sub/bookshelf systems:

1. Hyperion (Sonus Faber Electa Amator + REL Strata 2)
2. Russell (Sonus Faber Concertino + REL Q100e)
3. Dogears (either Axiom M3ti or NSM Model 5 + REL Quake)
4. Racio (Sonus Faber Guarneri + Sonus Faber Gravis sub). Although this is not a REL sub, but Racio guaranteed me that his sub sounds like a REL. hehe. (yon pala, eh ba't hindi ka na lang nag REL Bai? gulo! ...hehe)
5. Jay_Cee_Em (Spendor S3/5 + REL Q150e)... driven by Plinius 8150 integrated amp (naks special mention of his amp pa!)
6. Yours truly (SF Concertino + REL Strata 3)

[XLR_silver]

Hi XLR_Silver!

I'm very happy to tell you all of your worries and conjectures about subwoofers are untrue; well at least from a REL + bookshelf's perspective. Let me elucidate my point...

1. Contrary to your belief, bookshelf + sub combo is generally easier to place optimally compared to floorstanders. You see, in floorstanders, moving the whole cabinet to find the sweet spot makes prompts you to move all of the drivers (since they're in the same vertical housing)! Sounds like the highest you can achieve is merely a possible compromise for the midrange and bass response. Unlike in the former, you can start by moving the bookshelves first to find the best midhi presentation. Once you've found it, you may proceed by moving the subwoofer to all possible locations within the room to find the perfect bass performance. Ergo, Perfect location for the midhi presentation coupled with a perfect location of bass (for the sub) equates to perfect overall performance! Afterall, listening to the complete music spectrum that the human ear is capable of hearing (20,000Hz down to 20Hz) is truly of orgasmic proportions!

2. REL does not require you costly interconnects. Instead it has a pre-supplied speaker cable (10 meters) which you can cut to desired length once you have both found the "best" location and the sub reached full break in status.

3. To get the fastest & most tunefull bass, REL subs are best connected via speaker level connection (hence from the power amplifier's Left/Right speaker outputs). Therefore, it can be connected to ALL kinds of amplifers; unlike some other good subs (like the M&K MX-350 or MX-5000THX) which can only be connected via line level (from the preamp); big problem if you only have an integrated amplifier.

If you still doubt this theory, try to contact these fellow Pinoydiophiles and audition their sub/bookshelf systems:

1. Hyperion (Sonus Faber Electa Amator + REL Strata 2)
2. Russell (Sonus Faber Concertino + REL Q100e)
3. Dogears (either Axiom M3ti or NSM Model 5 + REL Quake)
4. Racio (Sonus Faber Guarneri + Sonus Faber Gravis sub). Although this is not a REL sub, but Racio guaranteed me that his sub sounds like a REL. hehe. (yon pala, eh ba't hindi ka na lang nag REL Bai? gulo! ...hehe)
5. Jay_Cee_Em (Spendor S3/5 + REL Q150e)... driven by Plinius 8150 integrated amp (naks special mention of his amp pa!)
6. Yours truly (SF Concertino + REL Strata 3)

thanks audio_tyro!

i assume that a y-cable is a must for integrated amps. are there any "audiophile" grade y-cables?

[Racio]

4. Racio (Sonus Faber Guarneri + Sonus Faber Gravis sub). Although this is not a REL sub, but Racio guaranteed me that his sub sounds like a REL. hehe. (yon pala, eh ba't hindi ka na lang nag REL Bai? gulo! ...hehe)

Actually, I took Darth H's opinion to heart that it would take 2 REL Stratas to achieve the same level of heft, low frequency dynamism and room loading of a single Gravis. And he sure got that right on the mark I must say.

[Racio]

i assume that a y-cable is a must for integrated amps. are there any "audiophile" grade y-cables?

Hi XLR,

I'm not certain if WBT offers Y-connectors. I've checked their website before but I didn't see one. I had the same problem w/ my ol' Cary pre having just a single pair of outputs, I had to settle w/ the unbranded gold-plated Y connectors they sell at Upscale and Listening. The results were decent given the options I had.

BTW, I saw some Italian made Audison connectors at Listening a few years ago, caution though 'coz they're just too freakin' expensive. Ditto for AVDI's Monster Cable brand.

[XLR_silver]

4. Racio (Sonus Faber Guarneri + Sonus Faber Gravis sub). Although this is not a REL sub, but Racio guaranteed me that his sub sounds like a REL. hehe. (yon pala, eh ba't hindi ka na lang nag REL Bai? gulo! ...hehe)

Actually, I took Darth H's opinion to heart that it would take 2 REL Stratas to achieve the same level of heft, low frequency dynamism and room loading of a single Gravis. And he sure got that right on the mark I must say.

wow! 2 RELs!... maybe in 5 years...i'll probably upgrade my phono cartridge first. i'll check out the gold plated y-connectors you suggested.

thanks!

XLR

[vintage_dog]

6. Yours truly (SF Concertino + REL Strata 3)

A_T, where did you source your Strata 3?

[rtsyrtsy]

2. Russell (Sonus Faber Concertino + REL Q100e)

Actually, I use the Q100e in the HT. I haven't found time to mate it w/ the 'Tinos for music, at least not permanently.

[arnoldc]

Strata III is from Ferdi Lu Do, he sells most REL models

[Guest]

Hi XLR_Silver!
i assume that a y-cable is a must for integrated amps. are there any "audiophile" grade y-cables?

IF you get a REL, you need not worry about buying a cable. It has a presupplied speaker cable that you tap on the speaker output terminals of your amplifier (whether power or integrated amplifier). You connect it in parallel with your main speakers.

I use this cable because I found out that the supplised cable from REL is actually better than replacing it with other exotic cables. It is thin cable but trashed other speaker cables that I tried (van den Hul CS-122, Tara Labs, Kimber, Ixos, etc.).

[Audio_Tyro]

[quote="vintage_dog
A_T, where did you source your Strata 3?[/quote]

Tama si ArnoldC, if you are after warranty, better to source it from Ferdi Ludo (fellow Pinoydiophile).

If you have more extras, don't just limit yoursleves to the Strata. It is only the cheapest S series REL sub. Meron pang mas mataas dun (Storm, Stadium, Stentor, Studio).

A_T

[Guest]

guys, mebe i'm missing something...
the question was integrating his tini-wini bookshelves with ass-kickin' bass. i'm no electronic guy, but just a struggling audiophile...., but HOPING to get "full range" enjoyment from bookshelves? don't full yourself into believeing that those speaks can deliver 'full range' they can't. your work now is to determine FULL, SMOOTH integration between your minis and your choice sub - that's all.

main speaks may be so fast in delivering your mids & highs, that your sub can't cope with their speed, thus, sounding awful like sitting with the BANDA 5, where the bass drum just hits you whenever & wherever ...and then there's time delay - tapos na yung section saka palang tumutunog yung baho mo

low freqs have large waves so they should not be so critical in placements. however, because they are coming from a box, it interacts with your listening environment, thus, may sound 'boxy' or boomy when placed in a corner (depends on the bass system design, I'm sure)...

to sound simplistic (we want it to be simple, but not too simple) , integrate your minis' x-over with that of your sub's, then they will 'sound' FULL...

just my 0.1f

peace!
egay

[AT]

Galing ni Egay! Yeah, that's why a very fast sub is not cheap. You're paying for its speed, articulateness, depth and ability to integrate well with your main speakers (electrostatics included).

REL subs are very fast indeed. My Strata has no problem keeping up with Sonus Faber Concertino, and Jay_Cee_Em's Spendor S3/5. The REL Strata of Darth Master Hyperion does not even sweat keeping in-stride wit his Sonus Faber Electa Amator 2.

Audio Tyro

[stjohn]

AT, all
REL subs keep coming up in our forum, even in AA & MUGHome... must be a real winner! I haven't heard them yet so maybe I'd give myself a chance. Tnx for the tip

cheers!
.e.