Tono Violin - first impressions last

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Postby marty_e » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:52 pm

To date, we've tried the Violin with:

CJ MV60, Dynaco Mk IV, Quad II's, AES SE-1 300b, Tono Personal 807 and Dynaco ST-70.

Tubes rolled include Sylvania VT-231, Sylvania 6SN7W (Short Bottle), Russian 6H8-C, EH6SN7 and grey glass RCA VT-231.

Rectifiers include JAN GE 5Y3, Mullard 5AR4 and one unnamed one...=)

Between doing all that since last weekend and tending to my kid, I can only broadly describe things for now. Details on each tube, amp, track etc - maybe next week when i recover. But then again that's not how I like to "review" things.

Broadly though, firing up the violin and laying that first track really brings some WOW factor with it. You can be overwhelmed by the larger than life presentation (front row center seats) coupled with some crisp well defined imaging and extended frequencies - both high and low. The music flows effortlessly even at low volumes (almost arrogantly).

Reminds me of the Fundador man who walks into a party like he's James Bond.

Getting past that initial rush, the cynic in you begins to criticize the presentation and to try to put things in perspective. You put your old preamp back just to touch base with what's familiar. You ring up a friend to come over and tell you if he hears what you hear. You put the Violin back just to validate everything and then that WOW thing is back...

Must be for real then. Then the looooong night begins. Track after Track after Track, you roll the tubes and here we go again - track after track after track...the hits just keep on coming.
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Postby ichabod » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:09 am

Your "front row center seats" makes me think one is pretty close up to the music. Like in your lap perhaps? Immediate? Overwhelming? Good reason for being open at low volumes. I can imagine from your listening comparsion that some pres can be a little reticent, shut-in? Interesting. Can you tell me the kind or type of music you've listened to?

I have no doubts about your observations, which makes me all the more curious about what tubes worked best for you tonally (tube preference as ref.) vis-a-vis the type of music listened to. I think "the cynic in you begins to criticize the presentation and to try to put things in perspective" is not unusual for any one willing to explore further the "wow" factor you've heard thus far. I just hope that all your future listening will not in any way wear down any of your good impressions on the violin. It's become quite interesting for me to follow through others' listening impressions, and see or learn how much can be gained as well by simply listening from another's hearing perspective. For anyone steep into audio, it's not hard to tell from the jargon and all who knows what good stuff is when he hears one! Right?
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Postby TonoMan » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:41 am

james, i think it's best for you to listen to the violin for yourself in a familiar environment. it responds differently based on tubes used, the speakers, amps and even cables. plus the room, and even the ears of the listener.

we all respond to audio a little differently and our preferences vary. what may "wow" one may not wow the other.

however, from comments made by others so far (comparing them with their current preamps), these are consistent:

- precise/better imaging...deep, wide (tube dependent too)
- improved dynamics
- wider bandwidth - bass goes almost an octave lower, highs extended (this preamp has been designed to resolve 7hz to 100kz, assuming your speakers and ears can take them)
- natural voice and timbre. tube dependent too
- musicality

is this for you? probably not. but, listen for yourself. most folks are not as articulate describing what they like when they listen to one. instead of words, they describe it with a big smile on their faces and by joining the growing list of happy violin owners... ;-)

as for me, who cares about front row or center seats, dynamics, imaging, etc :-D. i listen with my heart.

cheers!
Last edited by TonoMan on Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby marty_e » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:26 am

The music I like is a combination of soulful solo vocals and rhythmic jazz/latin/samba types. As a child of the 80's there's a bit of New wave, alternative and mellow rock. Lastly, i like the standards just as much as the next guy. Lets put it at 50% of the first category, 30% of the next and the balance for the usual rat pack suspects.

I am also a one-system guy. Thus I strive for balance. Neither think nor thin, rough nor smooth, warm nor detailed. While I seek one that appeals to my sense of sight and sound, what matters is that the music draws emotion out of me.

CD's/LP's I like to listen to:

Friday night in SF Live - Al Di Meola, Paco De Lucia
Pastiche - Manhattan Transfer
aja/Gaucho - Steely Dan
Afterglow/Surfacing - Sarah McLachlan
Reason - Noel Pointer
Riyuchi Sakamoto/Media Bahn Live
Dire Straits - Brother in Arms

To be continued...
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Postby ichabod » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:27 am

Nicely put tonoman. Thanks for calling me by my first!

With all the good ears that have listened, I can only surmise from thoughts heard it is a preamp that well source out the music. That will not be a problem for sure. As for me liking it is elementary. As you've so said, if it can pull heartstrings, that boundless ecstasy, serendipity, and all that pizazz, who'd doubt it!?

Really. It's enough for me to know there's some pinoy preamp that can elicit such raving fans! I remember my first "got me impresssed" bout with a local amp maker at Phasetron not many moons ago. You never know what sneaks right up one's backyard in this simple "we complicated it" audio hobby!


I drink to that, and say cheers!
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Postby marty_e » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:41 am

On the tubes - As mentioned, i've rolled the following:

Sylvania VT-231, Sylvania 6SN7W (Short Bottle), Russian 6H8-C, EH6SN7 and grey glass RCA VT-231.

I have yet to really get into the rectifier rolling but the little I've tried changes alot of my first impressions. Briefly:

Russian 6H8-C - Excellent value for money. Linear, no pronounced frequency range. Can be lean but quick and agile. Brings a lot of energy to the furious strumming of the guitar trio in Friday Night in SF with each guitarist discinct in their places.

6SN7W (Short bottle) - My favorite among all. Slightly Warm of Center but still brings bite and reverb to mark knopfler's guitar stint in Time out of Mind. Sax on your latest trick sweet and seductive.

EH6SN7 - Similar to Russian 6H8-C but a notch lower.

to be continued...
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Postby ichabod » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:46 am

Thanks for the musical scores you've mentioned. May I ask for some classicals? Have you too?
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Postby marty_e » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:09 am

Sorry James, not my scene yet. I'm limited to the Pachelbel and Mozart I hear on my baby boy's boom box in his room...

Honestly though citing snippets or passages of music, though the journalistic approach to reviews, is not my thing. I try take music as a whole.

In sum, I find the Violin to have lit a fire under my seat. It must be the festive air or the extra coin in my pocket that's taken me out of almost a year-long audio hiatus but now I'm really listening - not testing, auditioning, budgeting but really LISTENING. :D
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Postby ichabod » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:04 pm

I agree. "Reviewing" or attempts at an audio can be quite different from just plain listening. And listening is all it takes to enjoy music. May entail some expenses alright, but it shouldn't cost (as they say) an arm and a leg to enjoy it through simple listening. Thanks for the good.
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Postby BenC » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:24 pm

Hi marty_e!

Noticed you also used a GZ34/5AR4 rectifier. Is this tube a direct replacement of the 5Y3? Was there a noticeable sonic difference when the rectifier tube was replaced? TIA

Cheers,
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Postby JackD201 » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:38 pm

Wow Marts! This is a side of you that you've never shown here at WS being as reserved as you are. It looks like the Violin has opened up more than just your ears :D

That's a testament in itself!

I'll be sending you the "package" for safekeeping this weekend if you don't mind. You and VD can swap around the brothers at your own leisure. ENJOY! ;)
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Postby marty_e » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:01 pm

BenC wrote:Hi marty_e!

Noticed you also used a GZ34/5AR4 rectifier. Is this tube a direct replacement of the 5Y3? Was there a noticeable sonic difference when the rectifier tube was replaced? TIA

Cheers,
BenC


Hello BenC I believe the design of the Violin allows for this. I cannot generalize if it is always a direct replacement. I had a spare Mullard 5AR4 and tried it breifly. Sounded a bit too dark for me. TonoMen would be able to advise what other rectifiers can be used in place of the 5Y3...
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Postby marty_e » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:06 pm

JackD201 wrote:Wow Marts! This is a side of you that you've never shown here at WS being as reserved as you are. It looks like the Violin has opened up more than just your ears :D

That's a testament in itself!


Nah JD, just wanted to share a wee bit but things got protracted. :oops:
The borrowing, auditioning rigodon all year long is likely to end and I'm just excited I can move on now. Time to dust off those sticks and get our Golf game going...

From where i sit, reviews are better read than said. :wink:
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Postby BenC » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:15 pm

Thanks, marty e!... Just curious what the effect (sonic, electrical) the change from 5Y3 to 5AR4 will bring about ...

Cheers,
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Postby JackD201 » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:16 pm

Time to get your cousin to fedex your 9-iron then! :lol: Is it North vs South Ryder time again? I fear Ian O. will kick my butt bigtime!

Anyway, you should review more often since they are very informative and thankfully lacking in BS and flowery prose. Keep on callin' em as you se 'em bro ;)
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Postby marty_e » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:39 pm

BenC wrote:Thanks, marty e!... Just curious what the effect (sonic, electrical) the change from 5Y3 to 5AR4 will bring about ...

Cheers,
BenC


Let me get back to you on that sir. An enthusiastic neighbor borrowed the Violin and all my tubes and is holding her hostage. I'll retrieve tonight and share what I hear.
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Postby Audiogeek » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:25 pm

Marty_e, pasensya na if i say i am little confused with your review. Is it the tubes, the amps or the violin per se. What did you notice in each particular model or type, or say a track in a song that the violin really stands out. For example, if you listen to the Dave Brubeck's Take Five changing solo performance on the drums (the part i like most where you can find a certain imagry and separation of drums just on the left speaker), to piano and then sax, which in my case, this passages really pin and stick my ass down to the floor. If you play the same track on a different amp model or tubes, what is the difference. My brother just ordered one Violin and i will be ready soon to hack balls.
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Postby amandarae » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:04 pm

BenC wrote:Hi marty_e!

Noticed you also used a GZ34/5AR4 rectifier. Is this tube a direct replacement of the 5Y3? Was there a noticeable sonic difference when the rectifier tube was replaced? TIA

Cheers,
BenC


Congratulations marty_e!

Reading your post, like BenC, I too am intrigued about the 5AR4 and 5Y3 statement. I can safely assume that this produced a big swing in performanced(sound) of the unit. Yes, one can interchange the two in terms of pin outs, but the 5AR4 is directly heated(DH) rectifier whereas the 5AR4 is a indirectly heated variety.

The 5Y3GT (directly heated) does not have the "soft start aka delayed start up time" feature that the 5AR4 has upon turn on. It all depends on the designer of the circuit where it is employed to provide a delay preventing cathode stripping of other subsequent tubes on the voltage path. What it does is it wil strip your other tubes(cathode-stripping)because there is no electron cloud formed yet in the tubes before high voltage were applied(prematurely)to the other circuit coponents after the rectification stage. The 5AR4 on the otherhand is a indirectly heated rectifier which has the safety turn on delay eliminating the occurence of the cathode stripping problem. That is why some circuit design using the 5Y3GT has a filament heater first before applying the high voltage(delay).

Here is a table of the typical "turn On" delay time (meaning full voltage appllied for maximum current)of some tubes:

5R4 5sec
5U4 6sec/6sec
5931 9s/7s/10s
GZ34 31s/33s/32s
PY88 40s
PY500A 45s/40s

Also, the 5AR4 has a lower voltage drop than a 5Y3, around 40 volts less than a 5Y3 at say 100mA current. So, replacing the 5AR4 with a 5Y3GT results in under voltage of other circuit stages that would shift all of the preamps operating parameters. Similarly, a 5Y3 designed PSU using a 5AR4 will produce an over voltage which will affect(shift) the preamps operating parameters to the other extremes. Guaranteed! Unless, the designer intended to use both tubes in the power supply and a voltage regulator with a wide range is incorporated in the design of the PSU.

For me, it is on plain view that changing the 5AR4 with the 5Y3GT or vice versa will change the characteristics(operating point of circuit elements, thus the sound) of the preamp and of course its "voicing". This can be proven very easily by measuring the rectified voltage (output) of the preamp PSU between two tubes. They are not the same. I would bet that changing the rectifiers will immediately results to a different sound of the preamp that is not subtle and much more discernable than comparing/rolling 6SN7's.

Now the big question, "Is a 5AR4 a direct replacement of a 5Y3?" In plain view, it is not. One can take the place of the other but there are "precautions" that needs to be understood before doing so.

My above statements were from my experienced. I have been using an Octal preamp for two years now. It also uses a rectifier tube of either a 5AR4 or a 5Y3 family, has its own individual regulator stage (can use tubes like 5881, 6L6GC, El34, KT66, 6F6, etc.)per channel, and transformer coupled output. In my unit, changing the rectifier tube or the regulator tubes or both at the same time(although with this scheme, it was difficult to to pin point which one "contributed" more to the changes heard) project a bigger change of the sound as opposed to changing the 6SN7's.


mahalo
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Postby arnoldc » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:10 pm

obviously not! mataas ang voltage drop ng 5Y3 compared to the 5AR4. so definitely nagbago operating point. you are not hearing the rectifier in that case, but a change in operating point!
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Postby marty_e » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:27 pm

"Marty_e, pasensya na if i say i am little confused with your review. Is it the tubes, the amps or the violin per se"

Hello Audiogeek, tubes per se cannot be reviewed in a vacuum (pardon the pun) but reviewed in context of the equipment it was plugged into at the time. A Sylvania 6SN7W may sound different in a DeHavilland preamp and in a Tono violin.

The impressions I give are of the tubes in the Violin in my home and with my ears. The beauty of the violin is that it responds rather well to tube rolling, thus making it a critical variable of the entire equation. For the record, most of my listening was done with the Dyna Mk4's.

With regard to your query on Dave Brubeck's Take Five, and how it sounds on each tube, let me beg off on answering that. Though i truly like Dave B and I know that passage with the faint drums growing louder til it slams then the horn comes in - yes it does pin me down too. Try your brother's out.

ArnoldC thanks.

PS Your Kitaro's will be sent to VD this weekend...
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