Sellouts?

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Sellouts?

Postby bb3 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:17 pm

An artists’ shift in style can sometimes be a gauge of their versatility. A classic example is the Beatles; from their earlier “yeh-yeh-yeh” sound, to the psychedelic imagery of Rubber Soul, the eclectic Revolver and of course the ground –breaking Sgt. Peppers which transformed pop into art with a capital A.
But not all evolutions can be considered creative, especially when deemed driven for commercial intentions. Some critics call these “sellouts”.
Below is a list of some which I consider examples of this observation. Don’t get me wrong. I do like these albums but I feel a little of the “soul” of the artist was sacrificed for purposes other than pursuing their passion.



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George Benson – Breezin’
Benson’s cover of Gabor Szabo’s classic was like a breathe of fresh air during its release.
His upbeat rendition, together with orchestral background paved the way for the pop-jazz fusion genre. Para bang CTI (benson’s former label) goes hip. Unfortunately, the monster hit of this album was his vocal rendition of Leon Russell’s "Masquerade". I say unfortunately because when this guy discovered that he could sing, he just sang and sang and sang . . .Nakalimutan na ata niya na may daliri siya para mag gitara. Subsequent albums bear out that Benson started shedding his jazz feathers in favor of a more pop image.


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Eric Clapton – 461 Ocean Blvd.
With this album, Clapton started to establish himself as a rock balladeer rather than the guitar hero he was. I love this album. But the sleek production shows the pop concessions which make Clapton’s sound loose it’s “edge”. Note that Layla And Other Assorted Love songs preceded 461 by just 2 studio albums. Could this be the reason why EC’s popularity began to wane? I can’t really tell but fact is, Clapton prominence the following decade was buoyed just because of the release of his Crossroads, a retrospective which reminded his fans of how great he was. And in recent years, his next bigger sellers were Unplugged and Back to the Cradle, two albums which are more reminiscent of pre-461 Clapton. But then again, I can’t blame the man. Mahirap talaga sundan ang Layla. Layla was truly a tough act to follow; an act which I consider to be the pinnacle of this guitar god’s career.



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Elton John – Don’t Shoot Me, I’m Only The Piano Player
Again , I must admit that this is one of my favorite Elton John albums.. At its best, it is a very enjoyable piece of well-crafted pop/rock. But again, I find this album wanting of Elton’s “poetic edge”. Somehow, Crocodile Rock doesn't just cut it like Honky Cat. Where is the melodrama of Tiny Dancer (Madman)? Where is the adventurism of Tumbleweed? Or the moving Monalisas and Madhatters (Honky Chateau). Or the poignancy of Sixty Years On (Elton John). As with the two artists above, it seems that the John/Taupin duo started trotting towards a more commercial pop flavor starting with Don’t Shoot Me.
I don’t know if this is a gauge, pero tignan nyo nalang yung mga cover designs nung mga sumunod na album. In any event,this shift in style made Elton John the real first pop superstar of the 70’s.



Changes are inevitable. And I am not one to question whether these changes are for the good or bad. Sellouts? Your guess is as good as mine. But I just get to thinking sometimes, What if Benson stuck it on with Creed Taylor (CTI). What if Derek and the Dominoes reunited? What if Elton John wasn’t bisexual? What if the world is flat? What if Voca amps do sound good? What if . . .
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Re: Sellouts?

Postby keith » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:46 pm

bb3 wrote:Changes are inevitable. And I am not one to question whether these changes are for the good or bad. Sellouts? Your guess is as good as mine. But I just get to thinking sometimes, What if Benson stuck it on with Creed Taylor (CTI). What if Derek and the Dominoes reunited? What if Elton John wasn’t bisexual? What if the world is flat? What if Voca amps do sound good? What if . . .


:lol: :lol: :lol: Good one bb3.
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Postby jamants » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:29 pm

great read boy.....

wasn't Bob Dylan criticized/considered selling out when he carried an electric guitar? or was it another guy? :?: :?:
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Postby planarribbon » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:39 am

The Metallica "black album", THE monster metal disc of the '90's, sold millions of records, and was critically acclaimed by almost all segments of society... except by the followers of the band, who screamed "SELLOUT" upon hearing the album.

a cursory listen to the band's earlier "ride the lightning" "kill 'em all" and "and justice for all" albums will show how much of shift metallica made when they cut that album.

the black album is, of course, worthy of its accolades. but what of the aggrieved Metallica adherents and their voices?
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sell-outs

Postby kabubi » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:11 am

weren't Pat Benatar and Sarah Brightman opera-trained before they shifted to a more commercialized genre?

and how about the great tenors Pavarotti, Domingo, Carreras, Bocelli? would it be a sell out if they recorded pop tunes in their own classically-trained style?

sa akin ang sell-out ay yung mahuhusay at talentadong Pilipino na pilit na gumagaya sa mga puti, egoy o dayuhan, from the voice down to the look and the moves.
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Postby rvc » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:26 am

well, as part of it, we all must concede that the music business is primarily that - a business. i had the pleasure of having dinner with pauline wilson (of seawind) and blue ( i forget his surname, but he was one of creed taylor's production men at cti). he told me the story of how creed taylor actually went bankrupt for the art. remember the glossy, photo quality covers by top photographers Duane Michals and Pete Turner, the class a session musicians, not to mention the music itself and engineering by rudy van gelder, no less.

If you will note, a lot of the "sellouts" that started the commercial jazz genre actually came from, or sessioned with cti. benson, grover washington, stanley clarke, seawind, earl klugh (with benson in white rabbit when he was only 19, i believe) bob james joe farrell, and more.

then you had the "sweet baby" songs from clarke and duke, among the many others that marked this era. jeff lorber fusion's "soft space" album featured chick corea and joe farrell as guests. a few albums after that, lorber was doing "pop-dance jazz (for the lack of a better term)

point is, it's that - a business. and money has to be made. but after the money has been made, a lot of the artists go back to what they love, with a touch of something new, which makes it a pleasure to listen to them once again.
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Postby rvc » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:29 am

one more bit of trivia, this time from another genre. tears for fears almost did not record one song, because they thought it was a sellout.

that was "everybody wants to rule the world". and the rest, as they say, is history.
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Postby rvc » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:30 am

and i remember now, the guy from cti that i mentioned above, his name is blue johnson.
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Postby jonas » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:43 am

although abba's voulez vous album is one of my favorites, it is a sellout. it was abba cashing in on the "disco revolution"
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sellouts

Postby enzolm » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:04 pm

Boy,

Hard core jazz police also considered the 'with strings' recordings in the 50s/60s of some artists as sell-outs. The ones I have are:

Cifford Brown with Strings
Ben Webster with Strings ( Sophisticated Lady )
Paul Desmond wth Strings ( Desmond Blue )
Charlie Parker with Strings

I like them, especially the first three. To each his own, I guess.

Are there any other jazz artists who made a 'with strings' recording?

You're right about George Benson and Elton John, though. All the albums they made after the ones you pointed out - with the exception of Weekend in LA for the former. - were never as interesting ( to put it politely ) as their previous ones. It was "...the day the music died."
Last edited by enzolm on Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby KD » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:53 pm

Yes. Chet Baker with Fifty Italian Strings. I love that album.
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Postby planarribbon » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:05 pm

as shakespeare wrote,

"ay, and there's the rub!"

as an artist, one has a choice... to maintain artistic integrity, or to gain a wider audience and gain validity.. or, put other terms, does one become a starving writer in a hovel somewhere, or become a media whore?

mahirap, eh. things are never as simple as they seem, especially when one starts to speak of terms like "integrity" and "pride". bakit, as that eternal filipino question goes, nakakain ba yang pride na yan? does "integrity" put food on your table?

of course, i understand that that previous paragraph is another simplistic reduction of a complex struggle. but, until we are in their shoes, "sellout" is a really difficult label to put on anyone.

for some people, merely hearing that their favorite obscure bands have sold a decent number of records is enough to brand these bands as sellouts.

tsk, tsk, tsk... dapat, pinag-uusapan ito na may beer at pulutan
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Postby bb3 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:24 pm

I did not wish to plant any negative impressions on the above albums. In fact, they are some of my favorites. As stated earlier, Benson’s cover of Breezin’ was and still is a breathe of fresh air. I prefer Clapton’s version of Please Be With Me compared to the Scott Boyer/Duanne original. Elton John’s satire in Texan Love Song never fails to leave a smile on my face.
In the same vein, a shift in style is not at all unfavorable. As mentioned above, the Beatles did shift gears to both critical and commercial success. Also, Jay pointed out Bob Dylan’s venture with the electric guitar. Aside from some hard-core purists, Dylan’s electronic approach to his music was generally welcomed. And Dylan is still Dylan. Brian Jones’ death/departure forced the Stones to test the waters of pop. And they’re still rockin after 30+ years.
Opera singers crossing over to pop is both novel and refreshing. But somehow, Pavarotti and co. still manage to go back to their roots. Hindi katulad ni pareng Rod Stewart. When I first heard American Songbook, na-aliw ako. His gravelly voice doing a Sinatra piqued my interest which led me to buy the album. Problema doon, hindi na nagpaawat si Rod. He then comes out with American Songbook 1,2, 3. C’mon. . . .
But as rvc posted, it is still a business. And I guess it’s better to have a rocker/jazzer turned pop star than nothing at all. They still manage to come up with a few commercial gems (Mama Can’t Buy You Love- Elton John) here and there. And as rvc posted also, some of these artists do stop, look back, and take stock. Then they take a U-turn and release albums fit for their “pedigee”. Boz Scaggs did it with his 1999(?) album Going Home. And as mentioned before, Clapton too with Back To The Cradle.

Am waiting for Santana do do a similar U-turn.
But I guess he’s still having fun playing with Michelle Branch. :wink:

One thing I’m sure though is dapat may beer at pulutan nga kung pinaguusapan ito. :)
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trade

Postby enzolm » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:32 pm

KD wrote:Yes. Chet Baker with Fifty Italian Strings. I love that album.


Kuya,

Trade with 101 Strings? Pareho naman with strings eh.
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Postby rvc » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:11 pm

bb3,

usapang wallang hanggan na naman yan. before we know it the sun's out again for a "brand new day" - pun intended.
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sell out

Postby kabubi » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:09 pm

planarribbon wrote:tsk, tsk, tsk... dapat, pinag-uusapan ito na may beer at pulutan


sa Chakik's!
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Postby charlesmingus » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:24 pm

When Jaco Pastorius joined Weather Report, the band shot up the charts and began filling arenas like a rock band - bringing their brand of jazz to the masses.

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Weather Report - Heavy Weather
Weather Report's best-selling album is also Jaco's first as a co-leader, and his first full album with the band.
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Postby Bedroom Eyes » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:01 pm

On my own view I would not mind any artist to switch genre and be commercial. After all they have to eat and feed their love ones too 8)

Today American songbook interpretations is the way to go and keep the moolah flowing to their pockets. And as you mentioned Rod Stewarts napasobra :roll: Singers like Kenny Rogers, Carly Simon, Jame Taylor ( 1 song), Tony Danzaz, Boz Scaggs etc etc joined the badwagon which was then the sole domain of Frank, Tony, Jack, Nat and others.

At the end of the day we as first and foremost a fan and second as a consumer will judge their works by buying or not buying 8)

Me I still love the original guys of the Great American Songbook 8) And will continue patronizing them 8) And as for these guys who switch gears it depends on their interpretations if I should buy them :wink:
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Re: sell out

Postby Jon Agner » Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:05 am

kabubi wrote:
planarribbon wrote:tsk, tsk, tsk... dapat, pinag-uusapan ito na may beer at pulutan


sa Chakik's!


October pa balik ni Skarlet sa Chakik's :?
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Postby troporobo » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:08 pm

i've always regreted Wes Montgomery's move to the smooth pop orchestra sound, if only because he died so young. maybe he would have returned to purist jazz eventually, but as history showed he never got the chance
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