35K DIY Challenge

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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby qguy » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:54 am

Hi VD,

Would it be possible to setup a "35K Reference System" that would be used as an anchor to compare the DIY version ? This would validate that a DIY 35K system can sound better than a commercially available system
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby vintage_dog » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:04 am

qguy wrote:Hi VD,

Would it be possible to setup a "35K Reference System" that would be used as an anchor to compare the DIY version ? This would validate that a DIY 35K system can sound better than a commercially available system


frankly, am not hot on that idea. i don't want this to be a complex event. secondly, what's a reference system? :) the guys have their own reference systems and am sure all of them would be worthy of enjoying...

we want the DIYers to have a free hand in coming out with their creations within parameters (35k) ala iron chef. can you imagine an iron chef competition where they will have a reference for the food they will create. that will not be fun and i think will be disrespecting the chefs ;)

let's enjoy the show...
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby carbondated » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:18 pm

Since this is the best time for throwing around ideas, hope you don't mind if I share a thought. I think that the source should be as good as possible, and not just an iPod, because what if the amp and speakers are capable of much more, and then the bottleneck or 'weakest link' of the system would actually be the source and not allow the system to shine...

Just a thought! :)
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby JackD201 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:38 pm

It's up to VD really and it has a lot to do with the mechanics. An iPod not only fits the profile of a 35k target market, young and thus on a budget, it also one big advantage. It's portable and can be switched out and in easily. We want the intervals between systems to be as short as possible as it makes judging easier and more consistent. With 10 systems and multiple songs each, sabihin na natin 5 songs 4 mins per song, that's 200 mins of listening time already. That's over 3 hours without the time needed to set stuff up. Another consideration is that we are talking about tube gear here. The amps have to be at operating temperature at the time of judging meaning they all have to be powered up. Hot swapping looks really iffy from this perspective so portable is good.

This may seem like a simple challenge but there are many technical considerations that have to be threshed out. If the final physical and electrical layout will allow for a set source, I'm willing to lend my personal CD Player for the event. If not, iPod it is.
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby JoeyGS » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:50 pm

I think as long as one common source is used, one will be able to judge which of the system is better.

The portable source - Ipod - is a good source and can be improved depending on the external dac that will be used.
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby vintage_dog » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:28 pm

thanks for the inputs. yes, we may have an alternate digital source for the iPOd if we can address the challenge of mobility/portability as we switch from one system to the other. i know jack had suggested putting the cdp on a moving rack or cart (with wheels) and plugging (power) it as we we move from system to system. obviously the iPOd simplifies all that. we may plan to have both (ipod and cdp) at the venue but decide which one to use while there. we don't even have a venue yet :D
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby muypogi » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:01 pm

JoeyGS wrote:I think as long as one common source is used, one will be able to judge which of the system is better.

The portable source - Ipod - is a good source and can be improved depending on the external dac that will be used.


Agree. Even on a stand-alone basis, iPod output using Apple Lossless or AIFFfiles via the dock connector will provide excellent audio quality if paired to a decent system. I suggest something similar to what I use in the office:

1) 160GB iPod classic
2) Apple branded ipod cable (with dock connector with RCA + composite video out)

Wag na muna DAC since that will add some additional cost to a system and adds an additional parameter. At least with an iPod, the only system variable will be the 35k system, since we assume all iPod of the same generation will have the same sound.

Para fair din, all samples (by the judges and the competitors) will be encoded on the same computer, via iTunes using Apple Lossless and with error correction turned on. So the source will be an ipod connected via dock connector with RCA cables.
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Re: a challenge to local DIYers!

Postby Audiogeek » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:54 am

vintage_dog wrote:
Jon Agner wrote:baka puwede ding tanungin si Anthony kung gusto niyang sumali then collaborate with any of the amp builders :)


anthony no longer does DIY. i spoke to him the other day.


Congrats Francis. This is really a great idea, promoting pinoy diyers. Baka pwede kunan rin ng video documentation ang pag-gawa from start to finish by each participant na parang reality tv show. As the saying goes, its more fun listening to music in the Philippines.

I know you would not set a limit or maximum amount without any basis or idea of how much the sum of all parts would cost to come up with a decent set up of amplifier and speaker. I believed that the whole project is very doable at 35K for two components. My understanding of the rule is straight-forward. The materials cost must not exceed 35K, meaning profit and perhaps labor excluded, and which one sounds the best.

Share ko lang ang bill of materials for my 2nd diy sealed/acoustic suspension floorstander from Anthony before he ventured to commercial production:

Speaker Box (H37” x W12” x D14”, two chambers) ..................P5,000.00 pair
Denmark Peerless Softdome Tweeters 1”............................... 2,000.00 pair
Denmark Peerless Mid Range Drivers 5”.................................2,000.00 pair
(pair of speaker terminals, wood screws inclusive)

Added materials from my side:

KEF 10” Woofer (NOS export of Dai-Ichi).................................3,000.00 pair
Cork speaker inner linings & full fiberfill ...................................350.00
3-Way Cross-over (NOS German Brand export by Dai-Ichi)................500.00 pair
Logo (personal ek ek ko lang)................................................300.00
Wires & Soldering .............................................................150.00
Speaker spikes or foot (optional)

Total Cost for Speaker.....................................................13,300.00

The speaker is a 3-way system. The cost will still vary if the speaker to be presented is 2-way or sensitive full range.

So, net of the speaker’s total cost, I still have ‘roun P22K left for the amplifier component. A respectable SET or PP tube diy amplifier is still highly attainable with this remaining budget.

Here’s an image of the floorstander:

Image

Image

Sad thing Anthony doesn’t accept diy anymore. Since hindi rin kasama ang preamp, baka pde demo or display unit na lang yung hinihintay ko na Preamp Project. Pinoy diy rin naman ‘to. He he.
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby vintage_dog » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:10 am

audiogeek,

wow, thanks for sharing your project and costs. that should inspire others to do well in this challenge. you are right the 35k is the upper limit for materials only. with your speakers, the 22k for amp is very doable. the tubong bastos sold for 10k parts only complete with chassis, all parts, pair of 2A3 SET tubes and NOS driver tubes. no pre-amp needed as the source will have a way of controlling the signal.

i was with a group last night who plans to build a 20k speaker and 15k amp system. ;)

cheers and good luck to everyone!!
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby vintage_dog » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:18 am

muypogi wrote:
Agree. Even on a stand-alone basis, iPod output using Apple Lossless or AIFFfiles via the dock connector will provide excellent audio quality if paired to a decent system. I suggest something similar to what I use in the office:

1) 160GB iPod classic
2) Apple branded ipod cable (with dock connector with RCA + composite video out)

Wag na muna DAC since that will add some additional cost to a system and adds an additional parameter. At least with an iPod, the only system variable will be the 35k system, since we assume all iPod of the same generation will have the same sound.


yup that's the plan for now and the rationale..less variables to worry about. :)
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Re: a challenge to local DIYers!

Postby devo » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:37 pm

Image

very nice speaker brand name Audiogeek .... LIKE! ... Noypi na noypi!

And great project Boss VD :clap:
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35K DIY Challenge

Postby docsialu » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:07 pm

devo wrote:Image

very nice speaker brand name Audiogeek .... LIKE! ... Noypi na noypi!

And great project Boss VD :clap:

nice ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby ESaudio » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:14 pm

vintage_dog wrote:
muypogi wrote:
Agree. Even on a stand-alone basis, iPod output using Apple Lossless or AIFFfiles via the dock connector will provide excellent audio quality if paired to a decent system. I suggest something similar to what I use in the office:

1) 160GB iPod classic
2) Apple branded ipod cable (with dock connector with RCA + composite video out)

Wag na muna DAC since that will add some additional cost to a system and adds an additional parameter. At least with an iPod, the only system variable will be the 35k system, since we assume all iPod of the same generation will have the same sound.


yup that's the plan for now and the rationale..less variables to worry about. :)


For purposes of testing, i would prefer a reference CD player. 8)
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby qguy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:17 am

suggestion lang.. a small netbook and USB powered dac is another alternative.

vintage_dog wrote:thanks for the inputs. yes, we may have an alternate digital source for the iPOd if we can address the challenge of mobility/portability as we switch from one system to the other. i know jack had suggested putting the cdp on a moving rack or cart (with wheels) and plugging (power) it as we we move from system to system. obviously the iPOd simplifies all that. we may plan to have both (ipod and cdp) at the venue but decide which one to use while there. we don't even have a venue yet :D
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby Audiogeek » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:47 am

vintage_dog wrote:audiogeek,

wow, thanks for sharing your project and costs. that should inspire others to do well in this challenge. you are right the 35k is the upper limit for materials only. with your speakers, the 22k for amp is very doable. the tubong bastos sold for 10k parts only complete with chassis, all parts, pair of 2A3 SET tubes and NOS driver tubes. no pre-amp needed as the source will have a way of controlling the signal.

i was with a group last night who plans to build a 20k speaker and 15k amp system. ;)

cheers and good luck to everyone!!

Thanks Francis. Ikaw nga ang inspiration partner. No problem with the preamp. My diy speaker is actually driven by an SET with direct cd-to-amp connection and volume attenuation is controlled by cd remote. This really determines the performance of the amp and the speaker.


docsialu wrote:nice ;)

devo wrote: very nice speaker brand name Audiogeek .... LIKE! ... Noypi na noypi!
And great project Boss VD

Thanks docsi, devo. i really appreciate your words.

(ps: cost of speaker box also includes grill)
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby arnoldc » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:42 am

There is an available 7wpc amp for like $149. That will be hard to beat because, I remember our chassis for TB2A3 alone costed P2,000 already. A set of Edrel transformers is already way over the cost of the entire amp.

ps.

Francis, clarify ko lang... TRIODE lang ba, not triode strapped Pentode and other cheats?
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby vintage_dog » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:31 am

arnoldc wrote:There is an available 7wpc amp for like $149. That will be hard to beat because, I remember our chassis for TB2A3 alone costed P2,000 already. A set of Edrel transformers is already way over the cost of the entire amp.

ps.

Francis, clarify ko lang... TRIODE lang ba, not triode strapped Pentode and other cheats?


i was thinking of offering our extra chassis for the 300b amp for 1k. perhaps a non-edrel trans in that case is an option if edrel's irons are that expensive or edrel can have a budget iron for less for starter DIYers

yes, triode-strapped penthode ala 807 is acceptable (or el34, el84/6bq5), basta single-endd topology single-ended. parallel SE also acceptable. wag lang PP for this event. :)

thanks
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby alexg » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Are those TB2a3 chassis punched for the tube sockets?

If you guys are offering it for 1K, then I might get some for my 2a3 amp. Thanks.
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby vintage_dog » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:54 pm

alexg wrote:Are those TB2a3 chassis punched for the tube sockets?

If you guys are offering it for 1K, then I might get some for my 2a3 amp. Thanks.


yes they are punched for a pair of 2a3/300b sockets, a pair of octals and for a rectifier.

1k for participants only. will look for them in the bodega pa kasi :)
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Re: 35K DIY Challenge

Postby arnoldc » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:34 pm

alexg wrote:Are those TB2a3 chassis punched for the tube sockets?

Not the same chassis. This one is bigger, the TB2A3 is smaller.
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