Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

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Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby alfa » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:50 pm

I have a Cayin A-88T integrated amp which i have been using for some years. Ignoring the "if it aint fix don't fix it maxim", what would give a more immeidate difference? I don't want to do these three all at the same time, maybe one mod per season, savor it then on to the next one.

1. Mundorf it?
2. Change the preamp tubes? 2x 6SN7s and 2xSL7s
3. Change the preamp tubes? or 4 xKT88s
Inputs?
Last edited by alfa on Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby sheepboy » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:25 pm

Based on experience. MUNDORF it.
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby Superman » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:53 pm

Both :D
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby usai » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:02 pm

^ +1
enjoy music -bang! :!:
Last edited by usai on Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby docsialu » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:02 pm

Ano both boss jen? 3 choices dyan ah. Hehe


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Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby Superman » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:23 pm

I meant...mundorf and changed tubes aka tube rolling


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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby zenaudio » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:37 am

Tubes are easy to roll and you can go back to your original tubes if you don't get the result you are looking for. I would start with this.
It really depends on what you want to achieve. Do you want the sound to be sweeter, or more detailed, or more dynamic? Different tubes, specially 6sn7s at pre-amp, will have different effects.
Caps (mundorf etc) will also have an effect. In the end it will depend on the equipment and your preferences.

I don't have experience with the Cayin, but in my case (a hybrid integrated amp) I ended up with the stock tubes and am happy with the Mundorf upgrade.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby alfa » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:44 am

Thanks for the input guys. Will probably go for the mundorf upgrades first
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby Octaver » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:05 am

For me need to change both to achieve optimum sound. Doing one thing is like upgrading your Intake without doing nothing on the exhaust :rock: Sabi ni NKC "All the way" :devil:
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby tony » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:30 pm

check with CAyin first, they may already be using mundorf's in your amp, or if your amp uses polypropylene coupling caps, then you need not go that route yet.....getting different kinds of 6SL7/6SN7's might work for you....

when you tube roll, the operating points in your amp changes due to the fact the tubes of different makes have different electrical chracteristics no matter how small, even sections of tubes like the 6SN7 might have different characteristics, they are seldom perfectly balanced in terms of transconductance....

so yes, tube rolling might get you there.... 8)
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes beeter bang for the buck?

Postby alfa » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:00 am

tony wrote:check with CAyin first, they may already be using mundorf's in your amp, or if your amp uses polypropylene coupling caps, then you need not go that route yet.....getting different kinds of 6SL7/6SN7's might work for you....

when you tube roll, the operating points in your amp changes due to the fact the tubes of different makes have different electrical chracteristics no matter how small, even sections of tubes like the 6SN7 might have different characteristics, they are seldom perfectly balanced in terms of transconductance....

so yes, tube rolling might get you there.... 8)


Tony,
am I right to assume that I need not bias the amp if I roll the pre-amp tubes 6sn7 or 6sl7?
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby tony » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:23 am

generally no...but best to check with the vendor....there are some topologies that needs bias readjustments after the small tubes have been replaced....but that is another story.....
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby alexg » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:15 pm

On the Cayin integrated amps, you don't need to re-bias when preamp tubes are replaced.

In my experience, replacing preamp tubes have the biggest impact. Replacing power tubes of the same kind, meaning, KT88 with another brand of KT88, will have noticeable change in sound, but not as much as the preamp tubes. Cayins came with generic (no brand) polypropylene, replacing with mundorf silver oil might improve the sound.
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby alfa » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:31 pm

Guys thanks for the input. Tony, AlexG and the rest. I'm so excited now to roll the pre amp tubes. Ill be attending a seminar now on music IP rights and I'll be hard pressed to keep my mind on topic and off this hobby of ours.
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby alfa » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:40 pm

A little update. I changed the preamp tube 6SN7 from the stock TRI tubes to a ElectroH 6SL7. Initially there was no change in fact the sound was worse. After a few hours some change occurred. Now, after 2 days of 4 hour (night) sessions the changes are apparent. The midrange is less harsh and cleaner. The bass is tighter specially on the lower end. The only compromise is i lost a little on the highs. Oh well ill try to keep the temptation at bay and hold off the next upgrade. Most likely i'll go for a 6SL7 roll and a supreme cap later on.
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby tony » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:54 pm

let me get that one more time, you changed the 6SN7 to a 6SL7?

what happened there was that the open loop gain increased, but your amp being a global negative feedback type amp, overall gain stayed the same...

so you liked the 6SL7 better than the 6SN7? ;) :D
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby alfa » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:54 pm

tony wrote:let me get that one more time, you changed the 6SN7 to a 6SL7?


The amp has 2 pieces of 6SL7's and 2 pieces of 6SN7s. I only changed the two 6sn7's. The rest stayed the same.
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby Superman » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:58 pm

Are 6SN7 and 6SL7 tubes interchangeable?
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby tony » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:10 pm

Are 6SN7 and 6SL7 tubes interchangeable?


not everyday.......swapping 6SN7 and 6SL7 is not usually done, but i suspect that the circuit topology allows for it....he liked the result and that is what matters....

the Jadis_JA80 used a 12AX7 as driver, while the Jolida/sj-502a used a 12AT7, so nothing unusual here....

The only compromise is i lost a little on the highs


not surprising, since the 6SN7 can source more current than the 6SL7 for a given set of operating points....
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Re: Mundorf or change tubes, better bang for the buck?

Postby alfa » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:39 pm

alfa wrote:
tony wrote:let me get that one more time, you changed the 6SN7 to a 6SL7?


The amp has 2 pieces of 6SL7's and 2 pieces of 6SN7s. I only changed the two 6sn7's. The rest stayed the same.


just to further clarify changed the stock 6SL7's also with 6SL7's, different brand nga lang
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