Does single ended triode really outperform in sound quality?

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Does single ended triode really outperform in sound quality?

Postby bz » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:08 pm

AMX,
I get a lot of readings when it comes to single ended triode on how good it sounded and yet there are push pull followers who swear by it that push pull can better the SET with the advantage of cheaper valves and cheaper speakers (no need to go high efficiency speakers, usually costing more)?
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Re: Does single ended triode really outperform in sound qual

Postby amxtubeaudio » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:17 am

bz wrote:AMX,
I get a lot of readings when it comes to single ended triode on how good it sounded and yet there are push pull followers who swear by it that push pull can better the SET with the advantage of cheaper valves and cheaper speakers (no need to go high efficiency speakers, usually costing more)?


Your question is the debate of the decade. Measurement wise Push pull is the winner, engineering wise push pull has simpler output transformer design and is more efficient. But musically speaking this is where some separate themselves. But it actually depends on your system set up, type of speakers and even type of recordings you play and how loud you listen, remember you need to view this system wise, as a whole. SET have merits that you won't find in push pull amps, and push pull amps have merits you won't find in SETS, so the moral is have both, hehe. "Come se dice "as Italianos would say.. its like comparing a Sedan to an SUV eh. IMHO only :lol:
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Postby polaris » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:13 am

i agree with amx...i tinkered with single-ended monoblocks and in vocal or simple, less complex music, the musicality, immediacy, soundstage and purity of the music is unparalleled..to die for actually...my speakers disappeared and the music went beyond the box..

however, when my other music genre i..e chill out music, downtempo jazz, rock and house music kicked in....well, let's just say, i had to turn the volume down and change the music...the slam and dynamic kick is non-existent, i miss my active PA rig.. :D

this last observation is with conventional dynamic speakers...high-efifciency horns are another matter...
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Postby JackD201 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:17 am

I agree with AMX too.

Especially the "have both" part :D
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Postby pigdog » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:25 am

i agree with you amx as you cannot say SET is altogether a better performer, it will all depend on the synergy amongst the audio gears, i have heard of really crappy chinese made 300B and very nice sounding diy push pulls and vise versas and at one point i even heard of a very nice sounding chinese built integrated push pull amp that costs only hkd2500 roughyl php12k it goes to show, that depending on how it is set up, this will effect the sound quality in large measures.
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Postby Blu » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:09 am

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Postby kabubi » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:51 pm

i made a wrong post here, failing to notice it was the AMX thread.

my sincere apologies for the faux pas. :oops:
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Postby brady » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:02 am

Andy, will you be at the Nov show?
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Postby amxtubeaudio » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:31 pm

brady wrote:Andy, will you be at the Nov show?


I hope to be there for one, citizen brady
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Postby amxtubeaudio » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:33 pm

kabubi wrote:i made a wrong post here, failing to notice it was the AMX thread.

my sincere apologies for the faux pas. :oops:


worry not sir, its no problem.
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Postby stealth_bogey » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:47 pm

Andrew,

Sir, how about the push pull triode-connect? BTW, I'll bring the Amadeus to your shop for a bit of fine tuning to complement my new pair of Italian beauties.

Thanks and More Power.
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Postby bz » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:04 am

Now this is the right thread to ask you again. Most of the time I read that 2A3 goes up to 2 or 3 watts only while the 300B goes 6 or 7 all in SET mode to have the best sound. Can you stretch the power a little farther say 10 for the 2A3 and 20watts for the 300B while still mentaining the sound quality of the lesser watts design? At least this can bring more ooomph to their existing speakers specially mine.
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Postby bz » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:12 am

polaris wrote:i agree with amx...i tinkered with single-ended monoblocks and in vocal or simple, less complex music, the musicality, immediacy, soundstage and purity of the music is unparalleled..to die for actually...my speakers disappeared and the music went beyond the box..

however, when my other music genre i..e chill out music, downtempo jazz, rock and house music kicked in....well, let's just say, i had to turn the volume down and change the music...the slam and dynamic kick is non-existent, i miss my active PA rig.. :D

this last observation is with conventional dynamic speakers...high-efifciency horns are another matter...

When you say HE horn, trompeta na? or HE speakers like Fostex etc.? How high do you think of an efficiency do you need before you can get those you needed slam and dynamic kick? This question has been always in my mine cuz I wonder what type of speakers that can really give you that satisfaction using SET's like yours?
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Postby skeesix » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:28 am

Hi,

deleted and transfered

thanks,

skee.
Last edited by skeesix on Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby polaris » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:33 am

Hi Bz,

high efficiency horn i refer to above can be the single driver in a folded horn configuration or a multi driver horn design, either way, the principles of physics upon which it is based is the same.

I dont own one but have heard quite a few, including the famous ones..i think a100 db sensitivity is a minimum to get the SET amps into the impact/slam direction.

I'm not an authority but from my experience listening to a few, single driver designs dont do the bass in the "slam" sense, but is more about speed and articulation within the limits of the driver and the loading of the enclosure..once you hear a good design, you wouldn't care much about the last octave in the bottom because the speed, impact and articulation in the next tier octave will suffice.

can you get more slam from high efficiency designs using SET, i believe you can..but you need bigger enclosures and larger efficient drivers...

in the non horn designs, some dynamic speakers are efficient enough to do a similar effect. For instance the coincident technology line up from Mr Blume is known to be a good example..havent heard one though..
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Postby audiophileman2002 » Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:36 am

bz wrote:Now this is the right thread to ask you again. Most of the time I read that 2A3 goes up to 2 or 3 watts only while the 300B goes 6 or 7 all in SET mode to have the best sound. Can you stretch the power a little farther say 10 for the 2A3 and 20watts for the 300B while still mentaining the sound quality of the lesser watts design? At least this can bring more ooomph to their existing speakers specially mine.


The 2A3 single tube can go 3.5W / channel while the single 300B can go 9W / channel. If you want to double the output just double the no. of output tubes in parallel and bigger output transformers.
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Postby nad_obed » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:20 pm

JackD201 wrote:I agree with AMX too.

Especially the "have both" part :D


This is the best answer...hehe.

If people can afford, why do they have sedans, and suv's, and luxury sedans, and luxury suv's. It's the gratifying ease of enjoying any moment you are into....di mo na sasabihin na..."if only"...
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Postby bz » Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:55 am

nad_obed, I agree. It reminds me of a friend of ours. He has a Ferrarri and we got all american muscle cars. We drooled over his red low hugging and slick car but when we go cruising at high or even at low speed we the american cars group try to go places where there are more humps hehehehe. Tigil siya. Kami derederetso. in other words huli sya palage sa destination. Medyo 300,000 pesos lang ang cost nya sa pagpalit ng clutch nya but still we drool over that panting yellow horse. Mas gwapo sya pagnakasakay mas matanda naman kami. bottom line enjoy parin
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Postby bz » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:04 am

After a few hours listening to a 300B tonight in AMX I am beginning to like the sound and character of it. Better than PP? I am begining to understand I can't compare just like that unless I have some criteria first. Like the Ferrari and the Muscle car or the SUV. I am begining to understand my initail question in this thread has no premise at all and comparing them is not appropriate. ...... enjoyed and learned from your comments. thanks.
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Postby amxtubeaudio » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:27 am

bz wrote:After a few hours listening to a 300B tonight in AMX I am beginning to like the sound and character of it. Better than PP? I am begining to understand I can't compare just like that unless I have some criteria first. Like the Ferrari and the Muscle car or the SUV. I am begining to understand my initail question in this thread has no premise at all and comparing them is not appropriate. ...... enjoyed and learned from your comments. thanks.


There is something in power that is truly awesome, but there is something in feebleness that is beautiful which one cannot find in power. Delicateness and power are hard to combine in this world of ours. Maybe in another plane of existence it is a reality. 8)
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