DIY Line Conditioner, rig your own

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Postby arnoldc » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:46 pm

6A and 8A common mode chokes at RS Components are just P314 each..
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Postby alexg » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:21 pm

yucca wrote:
alexg wrote:I just bought a bag of MOV.

Dumating na ba bro?


Edrel Sison - any indication of the price for the CMC's?


Yes, it did arrive, but my wife and I are still looking for it, my wife put it away and we can't find it. :oops:
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Postby edwin » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:30 pm

Some things to consider of what inductors to use on your line conditioner based on Jon Risch.

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/surge.htm

Other inductors can be used, but the two most significant features
are: very low DCR, preferrably below 0.03 ohms for 10-15 amps
current draw, and below .06 ohms for 5-7 amps. The second is the
proper form factor and core, in this case a powdered iron or
ferrite rod core, not a torroid or bobbin style. The inductor
must also have sufficient AC current capacity for the total load,
plus a safety margin.

When paralleling inductors, use one's leads for the circuit hookup,
and use the others to stand the second inductor as far away as
possible, by making a little hook in the end of the leads, and
using that to make the connection to the other inductor. Keep
inductors away from any steel or conductive parts to minimize
inductor distortion.



The suppression chokes i used are 100uH, 0.033ohms(DCR), 7.8A under stock number 228-589 at RS Components.

For the capacitors, I used the Delta X2, Y metallized paper capacitor from evox rifa. Stock number 121-5449.

If you prefer, you could use either Auricap or Mundorf. They really make a big difference even if used for line conditioning purpose. But a warning that these caps were not designed to be placed between the Live and Neutral. To be on the safer side, a value of at least 600v dc to be used.
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Postby arnoldc » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:31 pm

edwin wrote:They really make a big difference even if used for line conditioning purpose.


How? What improvement?
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Postby edwin » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:09 pm

arnoldc wrote:
edwin wrote:They really make a big difference even if used for line conditioning purpose.


How? What improvement?


Soundwise on my audio rig. That's how i hear it. :D
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Postby tony » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:17 am

amandarae wrote:
tony wrote:
brady wrote:The much more expensive PS Audio Ultimate Outlet is just a common-mode toroid, and capacitors across.



yup, i studied the brochure, and i found nothing in there to indicate otherwise.

so called "power regenerator" is just another variation of line conditioner, that is how i see it. :wink: :D :(


Hmmm....pardon me, but I think your last statement is somewhat vague.

Variation is the "word" here.

The "power generator" is different in a sense that it converts incoming AC to DC, rectify and smooths it for ripple, regulate it, feeds it to an oscillator to re-create the AC, then amplify the AC from the output to generate the clean and re-generated AC at a set amplitude. In the outcome, you can control the voltage, power factor, and wave type where it can be a pure sine wave or a combination of it plus its harmonics applied at an specific phase angle set at the oscillator board before amplification.

How can that be the same variation as a line conditioner made up of chokes, LC networks and MOV's? In essence, they both do conditioning but that is where the similarity ends or variation as you put it.

Maybe you are referring to the "Ultimate Outlet" where it is made up of a big torroid choke but not the "power regenerator". There is a very big difference in the application between the latter and the former.


I do not see any vagueness at all, the power regenerator was borne out of the desire to come up with with a line conditioner.

And judging from what was advertised, this "power regenarator" in an SS power amplifier of sorts made to oscillate, it has a gain of 1 and varies more or less in step with load demands and input voltage variations. This is how it maintained the rated voltage output.

Now why would i hook-up my tube amp to an SS amp? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Efficiency was quoted earlier at 50%, what this means in layman's terms is that, for every 100pesos of of electricity spent 50 was wasted in form of heat. They were however able to up this to 85%.

From an engineering point of view, the output impedance of the 1500va torroid of the power regenerator can not match that of a 15,000va meralco distribution transformer. :D
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Postby arnoldc » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:32 am

edwin wrote:
arnoldc wrote:
edwin wrote:They really make a big difference even if used for line conditioning purpose.


How? What improvement?


Soundwise on my audio rig. That's how i hear it. :D


I will not contest you on what you hear
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Postby edwin » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:21 pm

Audience Adept Response Power Conditioner. These are just MOVs and Auricaps, no chokes.

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Postby yucca » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:59 pm

tony wrote:There are many "pollutants" riding the 60HZ meralco power line. Reflected waves from distant transmission lines produce harmonics, inductive loads produce transients, lightning strikes, even the cars's ignition system can couple signals to the power line. The pc's psu can produce EMI/RFI, so with microwave ovens.

now with line conditioning, all these are minimised by employing filters such as provided by chokes and capacitors, while have very low impedance at 60HZ, they present a very high impedance at RF.

MOV's are also very important part of line conditioning, since they absorb energy in the event that the voltage exceeds the nominal which is 220volts. that is why they are installed after the fuse.

Voltage regulators, like Yaden, STAC, or STAVOL also form part of line conditioning. In my case i opted for an isolation transformer to break gound loops and avoid nasty shocks.


Sir Tony,

Here in our area at Laguna Technopark, voltage reach up to 240V especially weekends and Monday morning plus we are (very) close to transmission lines of Napocor will a line conditioning and voltage regulator do it for us or we also need isolation transformer? What would be a good combo in your opinion? All of the above?

Thanks.
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Postby tony » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:41 pm

Here in our area at Laguna Technopark, voltage reach up to 240V especially weekends and Monday morning plus we are (very) close to transmission lines of Napocor will a line conditioning and voltage regulator do it for us or we also need isolation transformer? What would be a good combo in your opinion? All of the above?


That is the same situation i had in nueva ecija, voltage never went below 240. That is why it pays to have a bunch of mov's, many of them in parallel will break the fuse without getting burned-out in the process.

About the isolation transformer or avr it's your call. i used isolation transformer because i was getting nasty shocks, in manila i found out that the shocks are gone so i dispensed with it. :D
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Postby tony » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:50 pm

edwin wrote:Audience Adept Response Power Conditioner. These are just MOVs and Auricaps, no chokes.

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the chokes are inside the black shrink tube, i believe it is a torroid ferrite choke... :D
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Postby alexg » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:33 pm

yucca wrote:
tony wrote:There are many "pollutants" riding the 60HZ meralco power line. Reflected waves from distant transmission lines produce harmonics, inductive loads produce transients, lightning strikes, even the cars's ignition system can couple signals to the power line. The pc's psu can produce EMI/RFI, so with microwave ovens.

now with line conditioning, all these are minimised by employing filters such as provided by chokes and capacitors, while have very low impedance at 60HZ, they present a very high impedance at RF.

MOV's are also very important part of line conditioning, since they absorb energy in the event that the voltage exceeds the nominal which is 220volts. that is why they are installed after the fuse.

Voltage regulators, like Yaden, STAC, or STAVOL also form part of line conditioning. In my case i opted for an isolation transformer to break gound loops and avoid nasty shocks.


Sir Tony,

Here in our area at Laguna Technopark, voltage reach up to 240V especially weekends and Monday morning plus we are (very) close to transmission lines of Napocor will a line conditioning and voltage regulator do it for us or we also need isolation transformer? What would be a good combo in your opinion? All of the above?

Thanks.


I live in the same area, I use a Stavol for voltage regulation, and I will build Tony's circuit for line conditioning and incorporate MOVs for power spikes.

A couple of months ago I have to pay an arm and a leg for a new PSU board for my Samsung LCD TV due to a very bad power spike!
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Postby tony » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:21 am

A ga#16 on the chokes will be fine, resistance will be very low and good for over 10A.

chokes illustrated by edrell will be fine..

I used X2 caps, but film and foil types will better than metalised ones in terms of insulation and self-healing properties.
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Postby conspicuous » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:12 am

alexg wrote:A couple of months ago I have to pay an arm and a leg for a new PSU board for my Samsung LCD TV due to a very bad power spike!


alexq, did you have your tv connected to an avr at the time or was it plugged into the wall?
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Postby alexg » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:39 pm

conspicuous wrote:
alexg wrote:A couple of months ago I have to pay an arm and a leg for a new PSU board for my Samsung LCD TV due to a very bad power spike!


alexq, did you have your tv connected to an avr at the time or was it plugged into the wall?


It was plugged on my Stavol.

The Samsung technician told me that if I had my LCD TV on, it could have survived the spike. He told me that since the PSU board of the TV does not have any load except for the standby power, the PSU board has to absorb all that energy from the spike.

The warranty just expired (a couple of months), fortunately, Samsung gave me 25% off the repair.
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Postby conspicuous » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:54 pm

alexg wrote:
conspicuous wrote:
alexg wrote:A couple of months ago I have to pay an arm and a leg for a new PSU board for my Samsung LCD TV due to a very bad power spike!


alexq, did you have your tv connected to an avr at the time or was it plugged into the wall?


It was plugged on my Stavol.

The Samsung technician told me that if I had my LCD TV on, it could have survived the spike. He told me that since the PSU board of the TV does not have any load except for the standby power, the PSU board has to absorb all that energy from the spike.

The warranty just expired (a couple of months), fortunately, Samsung gave me 25% off the repair.


thanks for sharing this experience. :) would a surge protector (one of those power bars) have helped? sharing this experience is useful because i would like to make sure my entertainment system is protected too. i have my plasma tv plugged into a surge protector and then into an omni brand avr that can take up to 1kw. i'd hate for a spike to get through and damage the psu! :(
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Postby tony » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:51 am

The Samsung technician told me that if I had my LCD TV on, it could have survived the spike. He told me that since the PSU board of the TV does not have any load except for the standby power, the PSU board has to absorb all that energy from the spike.




Yup that is correct, a simple mod coulld have been installing an MOV after the fuse, imagine spending less than 300 now could save you athousand in repair cost.

i remember in 1990 when i had a repair shop, my friend showed off his portable cd boom box from japan. i told him then that for 250 i can convert his unit to 220, but he refused, so one day his household help plugged it in on the wall and there was a bang accompanied by smoke, so he had to shell out 2500 to get that thing repaired.


of course modding your set will most certeinly void warranty, so the next best thing would be to get MOV's installed in your power strip, right after the fuse or circuit breaker... :D

and after the warranty expires, i will most certeinly put those MOV's inside the units, because you will never know when you will be without a power strip. besides inside the unit is the best place to put those MOV's in. :D
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Postby yucca » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:25 am

tony wrote:
and after the warranty expires, i will most certeinly put those MOV's inside the units, because you will never know when you will be without a power strip. besides inside the unit is the best place to put those MOV's in. :D


Sir Tony,

Is it ok to install MOV and filtering caps in your ac outlet? So before you plug in your AVR's and Line conditioners medyo safe and protected na sila? Or still best as you have mention above, inside the apparatus?


:)
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Postby tony » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:35 am

yucca wrote:
tony wrote:
and after the warranty expires, i will most certeinly put those MOV's inside the units, because you will never know when you will be without a power strip. besides inside the unit is the best place to put those MOV's in. :D


Sir Tony,

Is it ok to install MOV and filtering caps in your ac outlet? So before you plug in your AVR's and Line conditioners medyo safe and protected na sila? Or still best as you have mention above, inside the apparatus?


:)


I would not reccomend it, since the MOV's themselves can get fried, and replacing them will be inconvinient. IMHO the best place is inside the equipment itself.
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Postby muypogi » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:21 pm

For those who may want a ready-made on na proudly pinoy made, check this out:

http://jdlabs.blogspot.com/

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